Omnipotence of God

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Theognosis
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Theognosis » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:36 am

KR Wordgazer wrote:I'm not a fundamentalist, but I used to be-- and I disagree that Christian mysticism is not part of the fundamentalist tradition.
Simply put, Fundamentalists reject Tradition, and Hesychasm is Tradition. Let's just agree to disagree.
The problem here is that the word "mysticism" has recently taken on connations of Eastern-style pantheism and meditation techniques.


Agree.
"Mysticism" as defined by the Online Dictionary, is "immediate consciousness of the transcendant or ultimate reality of God; the experience of such communion. . ."
That's good enough.
Almost any Christian who describes him/herself as "born again" will also place emphasis on personal experience of "the presence of God." Such experience is part of the second definition of "mysticism" in the same dictionary: "A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience." The Christian, Triune God is just such a "Reality." Not all "mysticism" is Eastern panthestic mysticism.
No, we are talking about mysticism akin to the first definition, one which St. Paul himself couldn't describe.

What, in reality, can one say of the mystical experience of St. Paul: ‘I knew a man in
Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of
the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth);
how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not
lawful for a man to utter’. To venture to pass any judgement upon the nature of this
experience it would be necessary to understand it more fully than did St. Paul, who avows
his ignorance: ‘I cannot tell: God knoweth.’


Source:
The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church
(St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press: Crestwood, NY, 1976)

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2thePoint
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by 2thePoint » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:17 am

Metacrock wrote:I appreciate that you are making an attempt to be understanding to people but you are not trying hard enough. your attitude is smug. I don't share your views on end times. I dont' take ever tying in the bible literally.
How is my attitude "smug" but theo's is not? Or yours? I see no difference there.

Speaking with conviction about one's personal views is not smugness, unless you are all guilty as well.

Why do you take other writings at face value, but not the Bible? Is it not literature? Does it not have various genre, various contexts, that tell us how to read various parts? Is it not the most studied and scrutinized text in history, and has anyone proven it inaccurate? Clearly you do not understand what it means to take the Bible literally.
the Chrsitian mystical tradition has been around since the beginning of Christianity. it starts with the book of John and with Paul.
Show me where your narrow definition of mysticism is in the Bible. Wordgazer is right; what you mean by mysticism isn't what I mean, and I mean what the Bible tells me it means.
It's found int he church fathers and all the way along. Just because you are unread in that area...
Very presumptuous of you, Meta. Smug, even.
doesn't mean its' not of God.
Know how I figure out what is of God? I look for it in the Bible. How do you determine what is of God? Experiences? Everything but the Bible? Whatever "works"?
Its' not fundie that's true. you wont find many American preachers of the "good old days" talking about it. although some do.
That's funny... I spent many years in The Institution and heard lots of spirituality along with expository preaching. What are the "fundies" you refer to all the time but never define, and why do you hate them so?
A.W. Tozar was as fundie and as protestant as they come and he was as mystical as they come.
I've read Tozer, and he was very wise. Very spiritual as well. But not your kind of "mystical", at least not in the kind of mysticism being promoted here.
you are indulging in fear.
That's a lie. Can I call you fearful because of how you keep reacting to what I say?
You are afraid of a type you don't understand
Repeating the lie won't make it true. I've read quite a lot about eastern mysticism, and your problem is that I do understand it.
and the closest thing you can compare it to is the antichirst and chick comics versin of liberal theology and so on. but that's just superficial.
I know of Chick comics but have never read one. This isn't about comics, it's about Truth, and the Source of Truth. You don't seem to know what I was talking about in connecting your mystical views with the coming world religion.

Meta, you've done everything you accuse me of doing.
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KR Wordgazer
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by KR Wordgazer » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:28 pm

Theognosis wrote:
KR Wordgazer wrote:I'm not a fundamentalist, but I used to be-- and I disagree that Christian mysticism is not part of the fundamentalist tradition.
Simply put, Fundamentalists reject Tradition, and Hesychasm is Tradition. Let's just agree to disagree.
Ok, Theo-- but I never said the Fundamentalists practiced Hesyshasm. I can't see God as unwilling to commune with Christians who love Him and are putting their faith in Christ's salvation, just because they don't use one particular method. I don't use Hesychasm myself, but I experience God's presence frequently. Another popular Christian lyric comes to mind (not sure who the artist is): "Every time I breathe You seem a little bit closer, never want to leave, I want to stay in Your warm embrace." I don't know what the religious background of this artist is, but I can certainly relate to this, as I'm sure you can. :D
Almost any Christian who describes him/herself as "born again" will also place emphasis on personal experience of "the presence of God." Such experience is part of the second definition of "mysticism" in the same dictionary: "A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience." The Christian, Triune God is just such a "Reality." Not all "mysticism" is Eastern panthestic mysticism.
No, we are talking about mysticism akin to the first definition, one which St. Paul himself couldn't describe.
Yes, you're probably right. The first definition is closer. The second is too generic and could be interpreted as pantheistic.
What, in reality, can one say of the mystical experience of St. Paul: ‘I knew a man in
Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of
the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth);
how that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not
lawful for a man to utter’. To venture to pass any judgement upon the nature of this
experience it would be necessary to understand it more fully than did St. Paul, who avows
his ignorance: ‘I cannot tell: God knoweth.’


Source:
The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church
(St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press: Crestwood, NY, 1976)
I think that's beautiful.
Wag more.
Bark less.

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Hazard
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Hazard » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:16 pm

Theognosis wrote:
Hazard wrote:I felt that Theo, in the australian vinaicular, "was having a lend of me," (Lend of, to have a : to take advantage of somebody's gullibility, to have someone on! ("he's having a lend of you") Mate, I'm Grinning like a shot fox and she'll be right, it'll turn out okay.
I'm guilty as charged, and for that I apologize.
I seriously dont read anything much except the Bible, and the others I mentioned earlier, can't lair it up now can I? sorry if that sounds simple but thats it. If I see something on the web that supports my thinking or understanding of a doctrin I download it and document it for future possible use. Sometimes I forget where I get stuff from. I'm not reading enough books to copy too much from anyone, seriously. And I'm not frightened to say where I get stuff from.
Yes, I believe you, Haz. On my part, I like to dig deep into the sources of the things I read on the net. That's how I ended up reading Hislop a long time ago. Then I saw your post, and the rest is history.
Sorry If I looked like I Spat the dummy! Lol. Theo, sorry mate! Your nothing like a Theodolite at all. Sometimes I come across like I'm not the full quid, pit props and specials, had the old head bumped a few times too many over the years.
We're cool, man. The mudslinging was fun while it lasted. I bet you enjoyed it, too.

:D
love it, no worries! I've had all kinds of s#!t happen to me over the years. I remember the first time I ever went underground. Ever been a mile or two underground and everyone turns off their lamps and someone pulls your battery off your belt and grabs your lamp off your helmet? You can put your finger right in your eye and you cant see dot! And all remain dead silent. Then someone calls "FIRE" in the next goaf, theres a massive explosion and your tossed back thirty feet by the wind blast? Ears ringing, head spinning, thats real scary. Everyone turns on their lamps and in the dust I see their all rolling about pissing themselves laughing. Thats how I was indoctrinated into the mining industry. They dont go this far these these days. After that, mere words lost their effect and never hurt me again.

Sorry, I got off topic, but were just talking right.

Haz.

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Metacrock
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Metacrock » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:41 pm

Hazard wrote:
Theognosis wrote:
Hazard wrote:I felt that Theo, in the australian vinaicular, "was having a lend of me," (Lend of, to have a : to take advantage of somebody's gullibility, to have someone on! ("he's having a lend of you") Mate, I'm Grinning like a shot fox and she'll be right, it'll turn out okay.
I'm guilty as charged, and for that I apologize.
I seriously dont read anything much except the Bible, and the others I mentioned earlier, can't lair it up now can I? sorry if that sounds simple but thats it. If I see something on the web that supports my thinking or understanding of a doctrin I download it and document it for future possible use. Sometimes I forget where I get stuff from. I'm not reading enough books to copy too much from anyone, seriously. And I'm not frightened to say where I get stuff from.
Yes, I believe you, Haz. On my part, I like to dig deep into the sources of the things I read on the net. That's how I ended up reading Hislop a long time ago. Then I saw your post, and the rest is history.
Sorry If I looked like I Spat the dummy! Lol. Theo, sorry mate! Your nothing like a Theodolite at all. Sometimes I come across like I'm not the full quid, pit props and specials, had the old head bumped a few times too many over the years.
We're cool, man. The mudslinging was fun while it lasted. I bet you enjoyed it, too.

:D
love it, no worries! I've had all kinds of s#!t happen to me over the years. I remember the first time I ever went underground. Ever been a mile or two underground and everyone turns off their lamps and someone pulls your battery off your belt and grabs your lamp off your helmet? You can put your finger right in your eye and you cant see dot! And all remain dead silent. Then someone calls "FIRE" in the next goaf, theres a massive explosion and your tossed back thirty feet by the wind blast? Ears ringing, head spinning, thats real scary. Everyone turns on their lamps and in the dust I see their all rolling about pissing themselves laughing. Thats how I was indoctrinated into the mining industry. They dont go this far these these days. After that, mere words lost their effect and never hurt me again.

Sorry, I got off topic, but were just talking right.

Haz.

and after all that your not a mystic? I would be praying without ceasing.
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Hazard
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Hazard » Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:39 am

"and after all that your not a mystic? I would be praying without ceasing"
.

I think I was too shocked then p'd off to do anything? I did learn that even God has a sense of humor. They are a great bunch of blokes, would lay down their own lives for their mates. I bet even God was chuckling at that one. Did I fall into that. Talk about green, or dumb, whatever?

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unred typo
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by unred typo » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:03 am

Hazard wrote:
"and after all that your not a mystic? I would be praying without ceasing"
.

I think I was too shocked then p'd off to do anything? I did learn that even God has a sense of humor. They are a great bunch of blokes, would lay down their own lives for their mates. I bet even God was chuckling at that one. Did I fall into that. Talk about green, or dumb, whatever?
I get over whelmed with all these labels like Fundamental,Traditional,or Eastern panthestic mysticism and Hesychasm (what is that? *insert scrunched face smiley*). Can't we just follow the example of these "blokes" (...would lay down their own lives for their mates)? Isn't that all that God requires of us?

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
:?

Everthing else is interesting, or not, depending on your point of view but just seems to me for the most part to cause divisions. :?
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2thePoint
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by 2thePoint » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:02 am

unred typo wrote: Everthing else is interesting, or not, depending on your point of view but just seems to me for the most part to cause divisions. :?
That's the way I see it too.

And Hesychasm means "silence", but what precisely people here define it as, and what it means in practice, they'll have to say. But in the Bible it just means to calm down and listen, to wait and hear. But in Hinduism it means to use a method to enter an altered state of consciousness where the mind is empty of rational thought. AKA "the cloud of unknowing".
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Metacrock
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Metacrock » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:45 pm

2thePoint wrote:
unred typo wrote: Everthing else is interesting, or not, depending on your point of view but just seems to me for the most part to cause divisions. :?
That's the way I see it too.

And Hesychasm means "silence", but what precisely people here define it as, and what it means in practice, they'll have to say. But in the Bible it just means to calm down and listen, to wait and hear. But in Hinduism it means to use a method to enter an altered state of consciousness where the mind is empty of rational thought. AKA "the cloud of unknowing".

dould of unkowing is not Hinusim. you are merely assuming that the thing in the bible is not a meditative state becuase you assume "It cant' be, mediation is bad." But it is, and there's no reason why it can't be.

cloud of unkowning is English, early middle or dark ages. Its Christian.
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by 2thePoint » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:27 pm

Metacrock wrote: dould of unkowing is not Hinusim. you are merely assuming that the thing in the bible is not a meditative state becuase you assume "It cant' be, mediation is bad." But it is, and there's no reason why it can't be.
cloud of unkowning is English, early middle or dark ages. Its Christian.
Check this article comparing the two: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... /myst.html

As the article shows, whatever name you want to give to the Hindu practice is fundamentally the same as whatever you want to call the alleged Christian practice. They have the same methods and results.

Meta, you keep trying to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my heart. Please refrain from this most unchristian practice. I've already told you that I start with the Bible and measure everything else by it. And it says nothing whatsoever resembling Hindu- type meditation or practices as being "Christian". You still haven't even given your personal definition of meditation or mystical either. Methinks you protesteth too loudly!
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