Different concepts of omnipotence.

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sgttomas
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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by sgttomas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:23 am

I already essentially have the answer in my previous replies.

There is no power and no ability except by ALLAH. Logic is not a foundational principle by which I am going to immediately grant carte blanche to judge God's actions without inspecting the metaphysical underpinnings. Therefore the idea of logic and omnipotence being described in that piece is not something that I associate with ALLAH if it contradicts other established principles. And we can get around to inspecting the role of logic once it is properly grounded.

If all of the forces of Earth were to gather against you to benefit you, or to do you harm, it could not occur except by the permission of ALLAH.

But even within the article there is reason to doubt that it actually refers to something substantial, since the entire argument hinges upon how one presumes to interpret "coventant" (as it being something other than a promise of God). God is free of need of our promises for anything. We do not attain to benefitting him, nor attain to harming Him by our actions. One cannot come to a bargain with God. And all affairs that occur in the Earth are by His permission. Therefore all of the "logical" conclusions are doubtful before even questioning the metaphysics of logic and how it might apply to the Divine Perfection.

Regarding contracts, ALLAH - may He be glorified and exalted - says:
2:282 Believers, when you contract a debt for a stated term, put it down in writing; have a scribe write it down with fairness between you. No scribe should refuse to write: let him write as God has taught him, let the debtor dictate, and let him fear God, his Lord, and not diminish [the debt] at all. If the debtor is weak in mind or body, or unable to dictate, then in fairness let his guardian dictate for him. Call in two of your men as witnesses. But if two men cannot be found, then call one man and two women out of those you approve of as witnesses, so that if one of the two women should forget the other can remind her. Let the witnesses not refuse when they are summoned. Do not be disinclined to write down your debts, be they small or large, together with the date of payment. This is more just in the sight of God; it is more reliable as testimony, and more likely to prevent doubts arising between you, unless it be ready merchandise which you give or take from hand to hand, then it will not be held against you for not writing it down. Have witnesses present whenever you trade with one another, and let no harm be done to either scribe or witness, for if you did cause them harm, it would be a crime on your part. Be mindful of God; He teaches you: He has full knowledge of everything. 2:283 If you are on a journey and do not find any literate person, something should be handed over as security. If one of you entrusts another with something, let the trustee restore the pledge to its owner; and let him fear God, his Lord. Do not conceal testimony. If someone does conceal it, in his heart he commits a crime. God knows what you do. 2:284 All that the heavens and the earth contain belongs to God, whether you disclose what is in your minds or keep it hidden. God will bring you to account for it. He will forgive whom He will and punish whom He pleases: He has power over all things.
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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sgttomas
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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by sgttomas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:40 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:I can see where your coming from there. Though I think you may have a point that our concept of omnipotence depends on our view of how reality works, which if they don't match up, can end up being inconistent. And due to my panentheistic leanings the "all-powerful" can potentially become quite literal, we cannot be wholly independent. But can we be autonomous? Being that we all seem to believe in free will, I guess I can assume yes unless you want Spinoza to be brought in which I am willing to (I enjoy that great heretic for some reason, plus there are some benefits to playing devil's advocate sometimes).
What do you mean by "free will"?
sgttomas wrote:No issues there. Especially in terms of being "worthy of worship." All others would be secondary.
Great! You're halfway there :)
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by runamokmonk » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:30 pm

Call in two of your men as witnesses. But if two men cannotbe found, then call one man and two women out of those you approve of as witnesses, so thatif one of the two women should forget the other can remind her. Let the witnesses notrefuse when they are summoned.


I care about how these humans a treating each other here, as this can be happen in the material world, that I live in.

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by sgttomas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:03 pm

Can you elaborate? :)
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by runamokmonk » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:10 pm

First, the choice is for two men, second, it is two women in the place of one man, and in the case one of them forgets. Thirdly, I believe women, if treated as such, may have no universal principle to appeal to if they take issue with such arrangements and the like.

So far, I see that they do not have this universal priniciple to appeal to, to alter and change social relationships and structures, because of the will of God, which does not look synonymous with higher principles per se, but that what God says is the highest prinicple. This is of course said and written by the group of humans who are not being treated as lesser (2nd choice) than other humans, and who are not treated as if they have lesser abilities at memory recall.

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by sgttomas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:41 pm

Yes that is something people bring up a lot, but don't you think you're reading a lot into that. Is that a good exegetical principle?

I don't understand this universal principle of appeal ? Is this a hardship on women you fear? I don't see it, personally. Isn't it possible this could actually be viewed as a mercy to women, since they are given more ease of responsibility? Nothing needs to be assumed about derogatory views of women at all .

Sure, you *can * read that if you *want* to, but there are multiple other readings without that.

Also I am not sure if you are familiar with the generation of the Quranic text itself. I think you are making a comparison to the Biblical text, but this isn't a good historical comparison.

Lastly, if we did want merely the human interpretation of this principle (versus the connotation that was understood at revelation time) we should look to history and see how it was enacted and the sociological thought around it.

The tone of the other sections I quoted seems more in line with great sensitivity to fairness and avoiding oppression -and that certainly fits with the parts I didn't quote too -so it seems unfair to take those words out of that more general context and seems more fair to have a reading that at least sees this as a mere fact of the matter unladen by our own cultural background (I. E. Gender equality means avoiding any mention of different forms of treatment or behavior towards men and women)














Is this all fairly reasonable?
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by runamokmonk » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:15 pm

First you suggest that I am reading into it when I think I have actually taken it for what it says. Then at the end you appeal to the current western thought of cultural tolerance which appears as a stop gap in thinkng in this case.

I brought up universal principles because without this the women who don't like it have nothing to appeal to. It.could very well go against Allahs will.

Without the universal principles, those who are mistreated, or say they are, do not have very much to appeal to.

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by sgttomas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:40 pm

First you suggest that I am reading into it when I think I have actually taken it for what it says. Then at the end you appeal to the current western thought of cultural tolerance which appears as a stop gap in thinkng in this case.
No, I'm sorry, but I don't think you've correctly read what I wrote. Your line of thinking I quoted here is nothing like what I wrote, or the kind of argument I made.


- - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You are talking about mistreatment without universal principles to appeal to, but all of the universal principles that can be identified at face-value from the passage are indicative of fairness and to be aware of injustice, and having fear of ALLAH for any indiscretion. Those are the universal principles to appeal to. We are simply looking at a verse about a valid contractual agreement. All of the moral underpinnings are clearly emphatic towards piety and noble actions.

If you are afraid of mistreatment of women because of some extrapolation from this to some harmful universal principle, you should show how this passage fits into the fundamental principles of Islamic Jurisprudence regarding what is a universal and what is a particular and what are the nullifying and what are the emphatic stipulations. Are you aware of the conditions under which one women would be sufficient? This is a complicated legal question pertaining to contracts. Traditional Islamic scholarship in the field of jurisprudence required *decades* of intensive study in order to be qualified to arbitrate based on the underlying principles.



I am sorry, but I don't think you have anything valid to worry about here.

Let us even take the worst case scenario where someone pursues this line of thinking you want me to follow that women would be seen in some derogatory fashion and suffer abuse as a result. I am not aware of how this would be achieved except for an ignorant person who wants to follow their own desires and ignore the emphatic examples of piety, fairness, good treatment towards others, and the continuous repetition of warnings to have fear of ALLAH who will judge even our inner states, let alone our actions. If you are afraid of such a person, then I too am against such a person and I stand beside you in holding them accountable for their abuses - and if such disgusting behaviour goes unaccounted for in this life, then know that in the Hereafter they have a painful torment in store for what they used to do. This is what ALLAH - may He be glorified and exalted - emphasizes again and again in His Word; this is the universal principles that Muslims are, or should be, taught to internalize. That is what I plainly read in the passage I gave.

If *this* oppressive behaviour is what you are standing against, then you are standing FOR the universal principles of Islam. Nothing in this passage contradicts what you are standing for. This passage is about legal contracts. Are you aware if there are any situations under which it is valid for only ONE women to act as a witness instead? Even though this is the normative case here (two witnesses), is it not possible that *qualified* jurists who understand all of the universal and particulars, the nullifying and the emphatics, can stipulate that under certain conditions a *single* woman witness would make a valid contract? I think it is certainly a *possibility* at the very least.

Please don't try to take this passage away from what it is about - forms of valid contracts, and a reminder to be a pious and noble person who has fear of ALLAH's punishment for being oppressive on others, or cheating others.

I can appreciate that you have a sincere heart and this drives you to act in compassion for others. I think that is a commendable trait. I really don't see that you have a valid cause for concern here. And where people who are hell-bent on justifying their slavery to their lower selves and their abusive desires begin acting upon these impulses, I will condemn them, for they are condemned for this behaviour by ALLAH in the Quran in nearly every page. It is only possible to ignore this if one's heart has been hardened and they have been blinded by ALLAH for their arrogance and by their sinfulness.



And if none of what I wrote changes your mind regarding your fears and concerns over the passage I quoted, then I am sorry, I don't believe your statements have any bearing upon the reality of the Quran and I am not concerned about what you associate with the Quran. I think the reality of the Quran is self-apparent, and that it's guiding qualities that pertain to the character we ought to emulate, and the attributes of ALLAH that we seek nearness to are clearly pointing people to forgoe their desires for control over wealth and possessions, for dominance of a person over another person, and for striving after our desires for things of this world. Our goal is ALLAH - glorious and exalted is He - and He describes Himself as the All Merciful the Compassionate. That is the character I see in the Muslims I know who have internalized the Quran. That is the character of our Messenger, may ALLAH bless him and grant him peace. And ALLAH is the Just, and will not cause any imbalance in our scales, but will reward us or punish us, for what we used to do. He is Aware of the hidden and the apparent, and He is the one who overwhelms the oppressors and who supports the weak. ***These*** are the universals that Muslims are taught to strive by, when we are taught by those who follow in the lineage of the noble tradition of our Prophet and the scholars who preserved his way, and when we seek to purify our hearts from sin and pride.

As for those who deviate from this path, I distinguish myself from them, and ALLAH is far above what they associate with Him.
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by runamokmonk » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:53 pm

I am sorry, but I don't think you have anything valid to worry about here.

Let us even take the worst case scenario where someone pursues this line of thinking you want me to follow that women would be seen in some derogatory fashion and suffer abuse as a result. I am not aware of how this would be achieved except for an ignorant person who wants to follow their own desires and ignore the emphatic examples of piety, fairness, good treatment towards others, and the continuous repetition of warnings to have fear of ALLAH who will judge even our inner states, let alone our actions. If you are afraid of such a person, then I too am against such a person and I stand beside you in holding them accountable for their abuses -and if such disgusting behaviour goes unaccounted for in this life, then know that in the Hereafter they have a painful torment in store for what they used to do. This is what ALLAH -may He be glorified and exalted - emphasizes again and again in His Word; this is the universal principles that Muslims are, or should be, taught to internalize. That is what I plainly read in the passage I gave.

I don't have enough time to respond.

I am not talking about someone abusing someone else in this situation exactly.

I am talking about what I understand to be thought of Allah's words in regards to witnesses for these contracts.

The social structure.

The structure itself I may be against in regards to quote I read. And it is what concerns me.

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Re: Different concepts of omnipotence.

Post by sgttomas » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:03 pm

... :|

You're inferring an *entire social structure* from this one example....and you *don't* think you're reading into the text too much?

I think that you're probably bringing a lot to the table, and maybe it just isn't so important to try and pursue this in your mind. Why not take this as a motivation though, to learn about the actual social structures that grew out of the Quran.

For instance, this clearly indicates a kind of structured law and order. This means that people have to be intelligent enough to be able to work within such structures. I have a book of Islamic legal interpretations and the portions dealing with business contracts number over 500 pages...and that's just the enumeration of the different interpretations amongst various legal traditions. That doesn't even begin to go into the principles, evidences, and arguments that stand behind the various rulings.

So we have a social structure that requires something like institutionalized learning, mass education, and the expectation of law and order. And this social structure expects women to be part of that structure.

Also consider this: there is a different meaning in legal language between saying someone "shall" do something versus someone "should" do something. I am not an expert in Quranic exegesis, nor do I know Arabic, so let's just play a hypothetical game based off of this one English translation. What kind of language is implied here? I would argue that it is the "should" form. Two women "should" be brought as witnesses, so that if one of them forgets, the other can remind them. Even if one were to take the "shall" option, there are always hirearchies of legal precedent, so that a document can say "shall", but it wouldn't be binding because of some other overriding condition.

Again, these are things that would play into the particulars of the contract scenario, and the women involved would be participants in that scenario - or at least at face value from this excerpt we can have every expectation that such should be the case.

....but I go back to my original point. Are you SURE you aren't reading too much into the text? I don't think you are bringing up a valid point here, particularly since the culture that actually DID develop out of the Quran is not playing into your thinking at any point (that I can see).

Even if at the end of the day, and considering everything I've said, you still aren't comfortable with whatever social structure you perceive, I guess I just have to say that such is your prerogative. You can form any opinion you like, I guess. But I'm wondering why you would want to?
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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