I am not trying to discredit that you have ideas about social structures and the role of women in them. Nor am I trying to discredit that you have been inspired on your path to God and that your heart desires to see God reflected through your surroundings. I am not trying to deny you the right to be concerned about living in a relationship with God and seeing that relationship in the society around you.
What am I trying to do is to distinguish between what you are bringing into this verse and what an *Islamic* approach, or interpretation, to her own sacred text would say about the social structure that ACTUALLY existed with this verse. So I am holding the verse to THAT standard, and you are holding it to YOUR standard. That's fine, as far as it goes, you are entitled to your opinion. But it isn't an opinion about Islam, or about how that verse should be interpreted (as a verse of Quran). Rather, I see this as you expressing some ideas about society. That's fine. But it's something different from expressing ideas about what that verse means.
What I mean is: you might be concerned, but you aren't REALLY concerned about THAT verse. Instead you are expressing concern about ideas that you were inspired to think about when you read THAT verse, but this is a very different meaning from saying, "That verse means such-n-such" based on your opinion.
....I am probably not being very clear. I am sorry. I wish I had a better grasp of how to express this idea. Maybe it really isn't that important and I am just stressing you out and wasting your time. ...I'll try to elaborate a bit more on what I mean, in response to some things you said in your last reply. If it doesn't help either, well...argh! Language is so pitiful.
Anyways, thank you for taking the time to compose your thoughts and bring up some interesting notions about how we can express our desires for justice, equity and liberation. I like those concepts and I like the chance to talk about them. Most of what I say below is very technical and probably a waste of your time.
I am not trying to dismiss you or your ideas. I actually wish I had more knowledge of Islam so that I might be able to share with you her ideas about justice, and equity, and give you a fair idea of the social context for that verse. Unfortunately, I am not so well knoweldgeable to give you anything but a false picture based on half-truths.
Sorry I couldn't engage you more on the subject you brought up.
My view of God, would be different, I think, because I would see the appeal for the change of structures in regards to principles such fairness, or equality of power, or liberation, coming from God. A disruption and imbalance from love, from below or the outer perimeter and the tension between what is for ought to be coming out of our hearts from God.
For instance, I see the power of God's love on the outside of the city gates of Jerusalem.
Since, human power relations are almost incomprehensible to me, God above is hard me to comprehend, except that people say he is and I used to tend to take what religious people said about God to heart and take their scary judgement stances literally since I am possibly blind to God, until an experience flipped things around some. Otherwise, I would have just rejected religious hope and faith and stuck with my heart. But, that is where the power of God may affect.
I can appreciate that you have had your own path through religion and are on your own approach to God. I totally respect that. But this is what I mean - you're bringing all of this into that verse and reading it through that background and interpreting it in terms of this idea of power structures, fairness, equality, etc. But those are *your* ideas of those notions.
I am saying that the Quran also has those notions, and traditional Islamic law also incorporates those notions. What I am asking you to do is not consider *your* interpretation of that verse and how it theoretically applies to you (are you being asked to conform to Sharia law?). Instead, refer to the ACTUAL historical societies that were REALLY based upon those notions of fairness, equality and liberation that the Quran has; see how the legal codes dealt with them; and observe the social structures that supported these features.
You don't have to. By no means do I think you HAVE to. I am simply arguing that if you want to go beyond this verse, and if you want to try to go beyond and explore what Islamic context might exist *out there*, then there are avenues to seeing the verse within the larger social context. But those avenues don't stem from *your* ideas. Not yet. Not until much more homework has been done.
Of course, you don't have to follow the Islamic notions and do that homework, but if you don't, then recognize that you are now talking about your OWN ideas and your own social context, and it has essentially NOTHING to do with the verse that you initially were concerned about. So I don't see concern in that verse, rather I see concern in *YOU*. Those are different things.
And it's fine to be concerned. Really. We need to have concern within us. And maybe you will be interested in following the Islamically inspired paths of concern to fairness and equity and justice? Or not. Either way, that's fine. But just keep clear the distinction between your own path, and the path of the Quran. They are different.
You see what I am getting at?
This is what I have been trying to say. This is why I said you are reading a LOT into that verse. You are certainly NOT just taking the literal reading of it. You are definitely - as you showed here - bringing a LOT to the table. And again, that's okay, but just respect that knowledge has a special role to play in our lives so it is very important to keep knowledge discrete. To keep clear in our mind what we know, how we know it, and what we associate with that.
Peace.
