Concepts and history of hell.

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

Moderator:Metacrock

Forum rules
(1) be interesting (2) be nice.
DT1138
Posts:46
Joined:Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:46 pm
Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by DT1138 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:41 pm

Metacrock wrote:
DT1138 wrote:
I bet a lot of that goes back to Gnosticism and mystery cults.

There are even Arianesque anachronisms in Orthodoxy. There's an icon of Christ as a beardless youth with wings like an angel, for instance. Yet Orthodoxy is strongly Trinitarian (even moreso than Western Christianity), but elements of the liturgy and piety date to a time before the Christian movement rigidly defined itself

The Toll House beliefs date from a time when there was little difference between gnosticism and Orthodoxy. Many Eastern European and Russian peasants still believe in Toll Houses . Fr. Seraphim Rose, an American-Born beatified saint-to-be in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, taught this idea... but he was just teaching a common pious opinion in Orthodoxy. Many other Orthodox have beliefs more like what would be found in Anglicanism- prayers for the dead are beneficial but how this is effective is a mystery (in the Toll House belief, the prayers keep the demons away).

Also, alot of the gnostic worldview overlapped with the CHristian one in some ways. Ephesians is a good example of this, Paul talks about the spirits and powers of the air and so forth- in Eastern Orthodoxy demons are primarily thought to exist up in the air, in various heavens or planes rather than underground. Gnostics had similar beliefs, some gnostic sects focused on learning esoteric rituals to get past the toll houses on ones journey through the afterlife. Paul's out-of-body journey to the third heaven also wasn't a rare story in the ancient and medieval world and many Christian and pagan traditions have similar accounts. Eastern Orthodoxy is full of mystical visions and otherworldly encounters like that, spiritual experiences are a significant part of the tradition of that church, mirroring today's interest in near-death-experiences and psychic phenomena, things about which western Christian churches have been much more skeptical and cautious.

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:27 am

There was a Michael Woods special on survivals of Greek religion in Orthodoxy. I found one of the primary sources he used, which is something about "survivals." Can't remember the source now. It's specifically about survival of elements pertaining to the "sacred way," the Elysian mysteries.

I'm not familiar with toll house, other than the cookies. what's that about?
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:46 am

Also, alot of the gnostic worldview overlapped with the CHristian one in some ways. Ephesians is a good example of this, Paul talks about the spirits and powers of the air and so forth- in Eastern Orthodoxy demons are primarily thought to exist up in the air, in various heavens or planes rather than underground. Gnostics had similar beliefs, some gnostic sects focused on learning esoteric rituals to get past the toll houses on ones journey through the afterlife. Paul's out-of-body journey to the third heaven also wasn't a rare story in the ancient and medieval world and many Christian and pagan traditions have similar accounts. Eastern Orthodoxy is full of mystical visions and otherworldly encounters like that, spiritual experiences are a significant part of the tradition of that church, mirroring today's interest in near-death-experiences and psychic phenomena, things about which western Christian churches have been much more skeptical and cautious.

Yes I know. The Seth literature at Nag Hammadi is all about knowing what to say to the powers when you try to get into the Plaroma.

It's great fun speculating about connections between such ideas and Orthodoxy and wondering where things came form. In the Pastoral literature, that which can be attributed to Paul, if any, "Paul" warns against such preoccupation.
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

DT1138
Posts:46
Joined:Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:46 pm

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by DT1138 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:39 pm

Metacrock wrote: I'm not familiar with toll house, other than the cookies. what's that about?
I'm sure you know what a toll house is? You go to it to pay somebody to use the road. In the same way, some Orthodox Christians believe when you die, your spirit ascends towards heaven on its journey to God . Along the way you'll pass through regions dominated by demons, evil spirits, and supernatural powers who have "toll houses" where they will try to claim owenrship over you based on your sinfulness. Each demon will have a different sin, some lying, some theft, some fornication or sodomy, etc. If you have enough of the sins to "own" you, you go to hell. This is not official Orthodox teaching (doctrine or dogma), it's rather tradition or pious opinion (with a little "t"), right in there with myrrh streaming icons, the Holy Fire at the Church of the Resurrection (Holy Sepulchre), etc. Pious but not essential and not something that must be believed. Official Orthodox belief is that the departed benefit from prayers, but how this is so is a mystery. Toll Houses are strictly a "pious opinion".

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:32 am

right right right. I've actually studied gnostic stuff about the powers and the plaroma so I should have realized.
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

User avatar
MonolithTMA
Posts:590
Joined:Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:16 pm

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by MonolithTMA » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:46 am

When people tell me I'm going to hell because I don't share the same beliefs as them, I like to tell them that we are all going to Zoroastrian hell. ;)
Peace,
Mike aka MonolithTMA

"The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book is almost beyond imagination for me." -- John Shelby Spong

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:18 am

MonolithTMA wrote:When people tell me I'm going to hell because I don't share the same beliefs as them, I like to tell them that we are all going to Zoroastrian hell. ;)
when people tell me about toll houses I say "what's so bad about chocolate chip?"

hey good to see you mike. Hope you have a Merry Christmas. I hope all those dear to you are doing well. :mrgreen:
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

User avatar
MonolithTMA
Posts:590
Joined:Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:16 pm

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by MonolithTMA » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:20 am

Metacrock wrote:
MonolithTMA wrote:When people tell me I'm going to hell because I don't share the same beliefs as them, I like to tell them that we are all going to Zoroastrian hell. ;)
when people tell me about toll houses I say "what's so bad about chocolate chip?"

hey good to see you mike. Hope you have a Merry Christmas. I hope all those dear to you are doing well. :mrgreen:
Mmmm...Tollhouse cookies.

A Merry Christmas to you and yours, as well, Joe!
Peace,
Mike aka MonolithTMA

"The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book is almost beyond imagination for me." -- John Shelby Spong

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:58 pm

MonolithTMA wrote:
Metacrock wrote:
MonolithTMA wrote:When people tell me I'm going to hell because I don't share the same beliefs as them, I like to tell them that we are all going to Zoroastrian hell. ;)
when people tell me about toll houses I say "what's so bad about chocolate chip?"

hey good to see you mike. Hope you have a Merry Christmas. I hope all those dear to you are doing well. :mrgreen:
Mmmm...Tollhouse cookies.

A Merry Christmas to you and yours, as well, Joe!

It was good. thanks for your comments on atheistwatch.
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

User avatar
MonolithTMA
Posts:590
Joined:Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:16 pm

Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by MonolithTMA » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:17 pm

My pleasure, my friend. :D
Peace,
Mike aka MonolithTMA

"The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book is almost beyond imagination for me." -- John Shelby Spong

Post Reply