The Orthodox Christ by Fr Maximus Lavriotes

[tinythinker]

Ran across this article tonight quite unexpectedly...

• The Orthodox Christ
  by Fr Maximus Lavriotes
  
  Church-historians admit that the Orthodox Christ is more than slightly different from the Christ of the mainstream Christian traditions, even that of the so-called “orthodox churches”. He is the all-encompassing Christ, who embraces within His universal Body saints and sinners alike. Church membership never mattered to Him; neither faith, nor lack of such faith in Him ever made a great difference. Not only had He practically proven Himself indiscriminate, by drawing “near unto Him all sinners” (Luk.15:1) and forming out of them His inner-circle and table–companions (Matt. 9:11), but even made Himself known in advance as “Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (Joh.1:29). And the only sin, which the world in its entirety ceaselessly commits, is divisiveness and separation from Him, which shall be thoroughly taken away when the world shall be inevitably absorbed into Him.
  
  Indeed, the most amazing event in history was that He was born already being the Saviour of the world and was not merely destined to become the saviour of mankind in due course. The Angel’s announcement to the shepherds of Bethlehem leaves no room for doubt: the Good Tidings of Great Joy, that a Saviour is born in the city of David apply “to all people” (Luk.2:10): it is meant neither only for believers, nor just for Christians, nor for particular members of any Church… For the born Saviour has been the Saviour of the world long before His Birth, indeed, before the creation of the universe. He has saved the world before all ages, certainly before creating.
  
  This is what many modern Christians do not want to know. This is what all Churches and denominations find ridiculous, meaningless, even threatening to their very existence. What would be the point of any Church function if indeed, without any church support, He has “finished the work” of mankind’s Salvation given Him “to do” by His Father (Joh.17:4) and that before all ages?
  
  Continue Reading...

[Metacrock]

Ran across this article tonight quite unexpectedly...

• The Orthodox Christ
  by Fr Maximus Lavriotes
  
  Church-historians admit that the Orthodox Christ is more than slightly different from the Christ of the mainstream Christian traditions, even that of the so-called “orthodox churches”. He is the all-encompassing Christ, who embraces within His universal Body saints and sinners alike. Church membership never mattered to Him; neither faith, nor lack of such faith in Him ever made a great difference. Not only had He practically proven Himself indiscriminate, by drawing “near unto Him all sinners” (Luk.15:1) and forming out of them His inner-circle and table–companions (Matt. 9:11), but even made Himself known in advance as “Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (Joh.1:29). And the only sin, which the world in its entirety ceaselessly commits, is divisiveness and separation from Him, which shall be thoroughly taken away when the world shall be inevitably absorbed into Him.
  
  Indeed, the most amazing event in history was that He was born already being the Saviour of the world and was not merely destined to become the saviour of mankind in due course. The Angel’s announcement to the shepherds of Bethlehem leaves no room for doubt: the Good Tidings of Great Joy, that a Saviour is born in the city of David apply “to all people” (Luk.2:10): it is meant neither only for believers, nor just for Christians, nor for particular members of any Church… For the born Saviour has been the Saviour of the world long before His Birth, indeed, before the creation of the universe. He has saved the world before all ages, certainly before creating.
  
  This is what many modern Christians do not want to know. This is what all Churches and denominations find ridiculous, meaningless, even threatening to their very existence. What would be the point of any Church function if indeed, without any church support, He has “finished the work” of mankind’s Salvation given Him “to do” by His Father (Joh.17:4) and that before all ages?
  
  Continue Reading...

We would still have a major mission. Our mission is to be conduits for the love of God. That has to be done regardless of salvation. Even people in the chruch need to feel God's love.

[tinythinker]

Ran across this article tonight quite unexpectedly...

• The Orthodox Christ
  by Fr Maximus Lavriotes
  
  Church-historians admit that the Orthodox Christ is more than slightly different from the Christ of the mainstream Christian traditions, even that of the so-called “orthodox churches”. He is the all-encompassing Christ, who embraces within His universal Body saints and sinners alike. Church membership never mattered to Him; neither faith, nor lack of such faith in Him ever made a great difference. Not only had He practically proven Himself indiscriminate, by drawing “near unto Him all sinners” (Luk.15:1) and forming out of them His inner-circle and table–companions (Matt. 9:11), but even made Himself known in advance as “Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (Joh.1:29). And the only sin, which the world in its entirety ceaselessly commits, is divisiveness and separation from Him, which shall be thoroughly taken away when the world shall be inevitably absorbed into Him.
  
  Indeed, the most amazing event in history was that He was born already being the Saviour of the world and was not merely destined to become the saviour of mankind in due course. The Angel’s announcement to the shepherds of Bethlehem leaves no room for doubt: the Good Tidings of Great Joy, that a Saviour is born in the city of David apply “to all people” (Luk.2:10): it is meant neither only for believers, nor just for Christians, nor for particular members of any Church… For the born Saviour has been the Saviour of the world long before His Birth, indeed, before the creation of the universe. He has saved the world before all ages, certainly before creating.
  
  This is what many modern Christians do not want to know. This is what all Churches and denominations find ridiculous, meaningless, even threatening to their very existence. What would be the point of any Church function if indeed, without any church support, He has “finished the work” of mankind’s Salvation given Him “to do” by His Father (Joh.17:4) and that before all ages?
  
  Continue Reading...

We would still have a major mission. Our mission is to be conduits for the love of God. That has to be done regardless of salvation. Even people in the chruch need to feel God's love.

I think his point (from the rest of the article) is that many people wouldn't see any point to the church because of how they have been conditioned, not that there really is no point of a church. He is after all a Greek Orthodox priest. But your point is a good one.

[Metacrock]

Ran across this article tonight quite unexpectedly...

• The Orthodox Christ
  by Fr Maximus Lavriotes
  
  Church-historians admit that the Orthodox Christ is more than slightly different from the Christ of the mainstream Christian traditions, even that of the so-called “orthodox churches”. He is the all-encompassing Christ, who embraces within His universal Body saints and sinners alike. Church membership never mattered to Him; neither faith, nor lack of such faith in Him ever made a great difference. Not only had He practically proven Himself indiscriminate, by drawing “near unto Him all sinners” (Luk.15:1) and forming out of them His inner-circle and table–companions (Matt. 9:11), but even made Himself known in advance as “Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (Joh.1:29). And the only sin, which the world in its entirety ceaselessly commits, is divisiveness and separation from Him, which shall be thoroughly taken away when the world shall be inevitably absorbed into Him.
  
  Indeed, the most amazing event in history was that He was born already being the Saviour of the world and was not merely destined to become the saviour of mankind in due course. The Angel’s announcement to the shepherds of Bethlehem leaves no room for doubt: the Good Tidings of Great Joy, that a Saviour is born in the city of David apply “to all people” (Luk.2:10): it is meant neither only for believers, nor just for Christians, nor for particular members of any Church… For the born Saviour has been the Saviour of the world long before His Birth, indeed, before the creation of the universe. He has saved the world before all ages, certainly before creating.
  
  This is what many modern Christians do not want to know. This is what all Churches and denominations find ridiculous, meaningless, even threatening to their very existence. What would be the point of any Church function if indeed, without any church support, He has “finished the work” of mankind’s Salvation given Him “to do” by His Father (Joh.17:4) and that before all ages?
  
  Continue Reading...

We would still have a major mission. Our mission is to be conduits for the love of God. That has to be done regardless of salvation. Even people in the chruch need to feel God's love.

I think his point (from the rest of the article) is that many people wouldn't see any point to the church because of how they have been conditioned, not that there really is no point of a church. He is after all a Greek Orthodox priest. But your point is a good one.

Yes of cousre I see that. It's a great point too, and I suspect he's right.

[tinythinker]

That's why I am returning. At least in part. Someone needs to set this shit straight.

[Gwarlroge]

I don't have time to read the OP right now (gotta get back to work), but I will look at it later. I think this relates to a book I'm reading: The Puritan Hope: Revival and the Interpretation of Prophecy, by Iain H. Murray. Revival is becoming a subject of casual interest among my age group, at least where I live.

[Gwarlroge]

It seems like he argues--from Luke 2:10 primarily and from Orthodox tradition--that Christ was everyone's Savior when he was born. I think the author takes this to imply a universal Salvation which was already purchased for everyone, regardless of their denomination, their theism, whatever.

[Gwarlroge]

That's why I am returning. At least in part. Someone needs to set this shit straight.

Which shit, and who will set it straight?

[KR Wordgazer]

Hmm. Some questions.

This and many similar biblical utterances have led early Fathers to the formation of a proper definition of Salvation as the state of complete identicalness with the Saviour Himself without involving either His Divine Essence or any creatural mediation.

Do we get to keep our individual identities, or do we simply get "absorbed" into Christ?

For the born Saviour has been the Saviour of the world long before His Birth, indeed, before the creation of the universe. He has saved the world before all ages, certainly before creating.

Odd. I am not Orthodox, and yet I believe this.

The issue at stake, therefore, is whether medieval and modern Christians have ever believed in Christ as Saviour of the world. Were the angelic Good Tidings to the shepherds of Bethlehem true or false? . . .

This is what many modern Christians do not want to know. This is what all Churches and denominations find ridiculous, meaningless, even threatening to their very existence.

The Protestant churches I have belonged to always taught "the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world." Why does he insist we don't?

Since they were called to share in the inalienable gift of “being” by a Creator, who, has irrevocably assumed their very human being into His Divine Self, they cannot but end up becoming everlastingly “complete in Him. . .

His Salvation is not subject to awareness of It in order to be granted. Nothing can cancel His Eternal Will to save all humans, one way or another, as He always wanted(1Tim.2:4).The mere fact that He assumed humanity in order to be eternally united with all human beings, transcends the bleak impact of sin on our inalienably good nature, which is already deified in Him…

If the Orthodox truly believe this, then why do they insist they are the only true Church?

The question they would never ask is; whether someone who has not yet saved anyone and who means to save only a few at the end of time and that only with their collaboration could ever be construed as Saviour of the world.

What of Jesus' commission to go "preach the gospel to every creature?" What about Paul's words about being "ambassadors for Christ"? Did He really give Christians nothing to do? Why did He say "upon this rock I shall build my church" if He didn't even want a Church?

He seems to be saying that Christ saves people against their will. Believing that you must cooperate is not the same thing as saying you are "helping" Him save you. Coming out of a controlling cult in my earlier Christian years, I inevitably bristle at any version of God which permits no human agency. It is not "androcentric" to insist that God respects the humanity of humans.

I'm sorry, but what I'm seeing is someone taking the "Savior before the foundation of the world" scriptures and using them as proof-texts, to trump every balancing passage that says our faith has something to do with it. It's not an either-or thing. It IS a "collaboration." God gives us the dignity of having personhood of our own. We are not simply to be "absorbed" into HIm. He wants an "I-thou" relationship with humanity, not an "I overwhelm and absorb thee till there's nothing left but Me" thing.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But I find this writer way too quick to blame every form of Christianity but his own, for not believing just as he does-- and to insist that if we don't interpret the "Savior of the world" passages the way he does, we don't really believe them. I've had that done to me too many times, to be agreeable with it just because it's a different set of Scriptures that it's being done with. . .

This isn't saying I don't think some form of universalism is a possibility. I don't know But I do know that God does not simply overwhelm His creatures with His power.

[tinythinker]

That's why I am returning. At least in part. Someone needs to set this shit straight.

Which shit, and who will set it straight?

THE shit.