Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnation?

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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by Metacrock » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:04 am

the reason body replacement violates Hebrew personhood is because they did not agree with the Greeks. The Greeks said the body is a tent and the soul is the man in the tent, The body is a ship the soul sails the ship, The Hebrews said body soul and spirit are you, the person is a unity of body soul and spirit,
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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by Metacrock » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:17 am

I am not goimg to argue this,I have bigger fish to fr. Make him show you how body replacement disproves the empty tomb?

His argument here is circular, he claimed that Josephus was our only source on the pharisees but since apul was a pharisee I think he is as good a source or better. 1 cor 15:42 seems to prove Paul accept body improvement rather than replacement.
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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by The Pixie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:58 am

Metacrock wrote:here is the saga, the endless battle between Pixie andmyself,

http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2017 ... 1589528106

It began as my argent that Mark did not invent the idea of the empty tomb of Christ, I proved that scholarship supports the idea of a pre mark redaction that includes the empty tomb, So Px changed the subject to something he thought he could win.
Scholars are divided on the issue.

You cherry-pick Koester because he agrees with yoiu on this issue. Koester still believes the empty tomb was made up, and you reject him on that issue. Why? Because he disagrees with you.
for some reason about which he could ever be clear Px got the idea that this body replacement thing disproves the empty tomb, I am not sure why.
Again this tired straw man. You consistently pretend that you opponents are claiming to have proved some and it is consistently not true.

This is dishonest, Joe, and people lose respect for you and your claims of scholarship every time you do.

Both Gary and I called you out on this in that thread you linked to, and still the lying persist.
my argumet is that God renews the body of the dead, When it rots away he till knows where the particles of dust go that the body rotted into he pulls them back and reveres the process and makes it new again then makes it better transforming it into a glorified resurrection body,
Are the same same bodies or different bodies? If the same, then the bodies of the living need not be changed; their bodies are fine. However, Paul stated the bodies of those living will also be changed, they have to be because flesh and blood bodies cannot inherit the kingdom, so we know that this is not what he believed.

You can call that a transformation if you like, but the result is a different body.
Pix can't accept that anyone would actually believe it.They believed in magic that is nothing compared to some stuff they believed.
I cannot accept that Josphus thought the Pharisees believed in reincarnation, and hence this thread.

Met agrees with me. Jim agrees with me. You have failed to put forth any argument to support your position. I think that about sums it up.

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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by The Pixie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:12 pm

Metacrock wrote:the reason body replacement violates Hebrew personhood is because they did not agree with the Greeks. The Greeks said the body is a tent and the soul is the man in the tent, The body is a ship the soul sails the ship, The Hebrews said body soul and spirit are you, the person is a unity of body soul and spirit,
Wrong. There are Bible verses that clear indicate the Jews thought the spirit left the body at death.

Psalm 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.[f]
11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Isaiah 14:9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the [e]spirits of the dead, all the [f]leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
...
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.


The Psalm may well be about the messiah, but for the Jews the messiah was a man (albeit a man adopted by God), not a god or part of the god-head. There is no reason they would think his spirit is different in this regard.
His argument here is circular, he claimed that Josephus was our only source on the pharisees but since apul was a pharisee I think he is as good a source or better.
Again you are lying about what I said, Joe.

The truth is that I said (11/27/2017 02:19:00 PM): How do you know this? There is hardly anything on the Pharisees anywhere; the New Testament and Josephus are the best we have.

But hey, you have an agenda to push, so truth be damned!

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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by The Pixie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:18 pm

Metacrock wrote:If Jesus got a new body why was the tomb empty? where did they put the old body? why did they need to leave an empty tomb? There are so many problems with your little subterfuge.

Jesus got a new and different body? Cleaver of God to put new nails holes in the new body so they could see where they were, But why didn't the men go "what are these holes doing here? isn't this a new body?"
This really shows how clueless you are about my position, Joe.

I WAS ARGUING THE EMPTY TOMB WAS MADE UP

How you can have missed that, given the thread was called " Mark Did not Invent the Empty tomb!" - a title you gave it - I cannot imagine. It is like this, Joe. Some people think the empty tomb was made, and others think it was not. You are argung that it was not made up, and I am argung that it was.

Is that clear to you?

Now think about your question to me: If Jesus got a new body why was the tomb empty?

Think you could guess my response?

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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by The Pixie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:25 pm

It is okay, Joe, I do not want to tax your brain too much, so I ill just tell you.

There was no empty tomb, it was made up.
Jesus had the same body that was crucified, because it still had the wounds; but he clearly said he was in some state of glorification because he didn't want Mary M to touch him because he had not yet been before the father,
All made up later Joe.

There is nothing in Paul or Mark about Jesus still having his wounds, or about Mary seeing him, or about the ascension or about anyone seeing him in Jerusalem after being resurrected. Why not? No one had made it up yet.

Mark made it clear that Jesus would see the disciples in Galilee and that the women who found the empty tomb told no one about it. Later gospels made up stuff at the end for apologetic purposes, and they vary wildly in who saw what when - and all disagrees with Paul's account, which is almost certainly repeating the earliest beliefs

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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by Metacrock » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:40 pm

your arguments are bogus, I advise all concerned to read the link.,
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Re: Did Josephus think the Pharisees believed in reincarnati

Post by The Pixie » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:12 pm

Metacrock wrote:your arguments are bogus, I advise all concerned to read the link.,
In particular, look where I said the the New Testament was one of our sources on the Pharisees, despite what Joe is claiming I said.

Also look at where Gary and I both stated we were not claiming to have proved the empty tomb was made up. Again, despite what Joe is claiming I said.

Oh, and do please look at where Joe is claiming Josephus, the foremost Jewish historian of his time, said that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation.

Bonus points for anyone who can glean from the thread my position on the empty tomb using only the posts in that thread on whetrher the empty tomb was invented. Because Joe can't.

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