What is hell?

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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met
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Re: What is hell?

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:45 am

Your lack of imagination in interpreting Christ's image is your essential problem from my point of view....

The " big message" in the Scriptures? It is couched in narratives & poetic forms & song lyrics & personal letters mostly. What does that say about it to you? Are those proper forms for a legalistic and easily delineated message full of simple, ritual obligations that lead in obvious ways to blessings?

But why should it be that, in your view? "How to score a C- and sneak into heaven" - is that the message you believe God needs to deliver?

Moreover, why does the prophetic tradition itself, with which Jesus was aligned, not accentuate the correct performance of rituals - and constantly demand better performances of rituals - why is it more concerned with (as someone might say) "deeper" aspects of "doing God's will?"
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Re: What is hell?

Post by The Pixie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:02 am

met wrote:Your lack of imagination in interpreting Christ's image is your essential problem from my point of view....

The " big message" in the Scriptures? It is couched in narratives & poetic forms & song lyrics & personal letters mostly. What does that say about it to you? Are those proper forms for a legalistic and easily delineated message full of simple, ritual obligations that lead in obvious ways to blessings?

But why should it be that, in your view? "How to score a C- and sneak into heaven" - is that the message you believe God needs to deliver?
I think how to get to heaven is the message. I note that while you seem to disagree, you do not offer an alternative.

What is the primary message of the Bible? Why was Jesus crucified and resurrected?

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met
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Re: What is hell?

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 am

For me, that's more like the exact difficult question at the center of the tradition, the one that Xians need to wrestle with .... it's problematical rather than offering a pat solution....

https://www.pcnbritain.org.uk/blog/post ... d_who_dies
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

Jim B.
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Re: What is hell?

Post by Jim B. » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:07 pm

met wrote:For me, that's more like the exact difficult question at the center of the tradition, the one that Xians need to wrestle with .... it's problematical rather than offering a pat solution....

https://www.pcnbritain.org.uk/blog/post ... d_who_dies
That's why I think the 'message' is meant to engage the entire person and community, not merely in terms of instrumental reasoning (quid pro quo).

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met
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Re: What is hell?

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:18 pm

Yep, it's sure hard to convey to certain mindsets that the Gospel is not supposed to be reducible to a formula, an economy, an exchange, an arrangement, or a "deal with God" of any kind .... as ridiculous as such a concept is, in the first place, if one gives it but a moment's thought.

I think the parable of the workers demonstrates that clearly, though. Also, more subtly, the good shepherd parable (it is, after all, economic insanity to go after one lost sheep while leaving 99 perfectly good ones unattended) and the prodigal son.....among other hints and such.....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Re: What is hell?

Post by The Pixie » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:18 am

Yep, it's sure hard to convey to certain mindsets that the Gospel is not supposed to be reducible to a formula, an economy, an exchange, an arrangement, or a "deal with God" of any kind .... as ridiculous as such a concept is, in the first place, if one gives it but a moment's thought.
And yet Christians do just that:

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/th ... -221-words

http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles ... ssage.html

https://www.crossway.org/books/the-whol ... words-tpb/

http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/jesus_salvation.php

This one has 25 of by "thoughtful scholars and pastors":
http://dogmadoxa.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01 ... tence.html

Maybe you should contact them to point out how "ridiculous" they are...

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met
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Re: What is hell?

Post by met » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:21 am

Px, we'd have to go thru them all and decide the extent to which each one was reducing the Gospel to "a deal, an economy, an exchange", as I said, before we could do that? But perhaps there's still a point there....

I wonder what those writers would think of the Rollins spin, based on Christ's P's 22 utterance on the cross, that's outlined in the link above. Could the Gospel invoke existential doubt? How much could the Gospel itself BE a "problem" instead of a solution to a problem? Who does the Gospel create problems for and to whom does it offer comfort?

These are, perhaps, questions with strong political connotations too.....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

Jim B.
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Re: What is hell?

Post by Jim B. » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:54 pm

The Pixie wrote:
Yep, it's sure hard to convey to certain mindsets that the Gospel is not supposed to be reducible to a formula, an economy, an exchange, an arrangement, or a "deal with God" of any kind .... as ridiculous as such a concept is, in the first place, if one gives it but a moment's thought.
And yet Christians do just that:

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/th ... -221-words

http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles ... ssage.html

https://www.crossway.org/books/the-whol ... words-tpb/

http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/jesus_salvation.php

This one has 25 of by "thoughtful scholars and pastors":
http://dogmadoxa.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01 ... tence.html

Maybe you should contact them to point out how "ridiculous" they are...
I read all of your links and I frankly don't see much evidence of a quid pro quo reductionism. Yes, conservative Christians generally tend to believe that believers will live with God in eternal bliss but even among conservatives there's so much more to it than that! The bliss is the fulfillment and the result of communion with God and God's will but God is the active force, not the believer. Bliss results from aligning the individual will with God's agency and purpose but isn;t reducible to being the one end or goal. Of course Xians want the good, as everyone does, for themselves, their loved ones and for all of creation, but they identify the good as being one with God's will and purposes. That's why they want it. And that's why some Christians accept the real possibility that there is no individual afterlife.

These are from dogmadoxa, your last link:
The message of the Bible in one sentence is that genuine truth, unlike every human philosophy, is far too luxuriant, too enthralling, too personal, too all-encompassing, too sovereign, and too life-changing to be reducible to one sentence (or, as Einstein once put it, the challenge is to 'make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler').

The Triune God is the beginning, middle, and end of everything, 'for from him (as Creator) and through him (as Sustainer and Redeemer) and to him (as Judge) are all things' (Roms 11:36)

In fact, it really is impossible to answer my question. How could you ask, for instance, what the Lord of the Rings is about in a single sentence? It can't be done. You must simply enter in and get swept up in the story. We can all resonate, therefore, with Hugenberger's valid response. Yet while we can agree to eschew simplistic reductionisms, this need not include an eschewing of synthetic summaries. We find such summaries in the Bible itself--psalms summarizing Israel's history, Jesus in Matt 22:40 or Luke 24:25-26, several speeches in Acts, and Paul in Gal 5:14 or 1 Cor: 3-4.

The Pixie
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Re: What is hell?

Post by The Pixie » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:09 am

My point was that a lot of Christians think there is a central message to the Bible, and therefore it is not "ridiculous" of me to ask you guys what you think it is.

Okay, neither of you can discern any such message. I suppose we need to accept that and move on.

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met
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Re: What is hell?

Post by met » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:34 am

Well, okay, I could offer you the same quote I gave you on the other thread ...
So don’t be so surprised when I tell you that you have to be ‘born from above’—out of this world, so to speak. You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that. You hear it rustling through the trees, but you have no idea where it comes from or where it’s headed next. That’s the way it is with everyone ‘born from above’ by the wind of God, the Spirit of God.”
.....but the implications seem to me so wide and vague as to not really say much to you, unless you are someone who's already in tune with what's being said....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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