Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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Metacrock
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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by Metacrock » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:48 am

The Pixie wrote: Amoebas, dogs and aliens may have minds, but neverheless all the minds we know of reside in physical human brains. The "we know of" qualify is important.
you just contradicted yourself, we know about amoebas and they don't have brains, that was my whole point in bringing them into it. Also holds true of slime molds in general.


The bigger point here is that you are not follow the basic logic.

1. All the minds we know of reside in physical human brains

[contradicted by Amoebas and slime molds]


2. Therefore it is reasonable to assume all minds reside in physical human brains

[contradicted by dogs, not human brains]

3. The universe must be organised by a mind (from your post)
4. Therefore the universe was organised by a mind in a human brain

I suppose it could be modified to allow for your dog:

(damn straight))
1. All the minds we know of reside in physical biological brains
2. Therefore it is reasonable to assume all minds reside in physical biological brains
3. The universe must be organised by a mind (from your post)
4. Therefore the universe was organised by a mind in one or more biological brains
still contradicted by Amoebas and slime. the ground up argument made is justified,
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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by Metacrock » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:50 am

Jim B. wrote:To Joe and Pix: Thanks for continuing to post on here and doing your best to keep this board alive!
buddy sign :mrgreen:
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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by Metacrock » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:53 am

met wrote:Better to post here, better formatting capacities.....

I know I hate comment section on the blog, I wish message boards could have the cashe blogs do,
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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by JBSptfn » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:33 am

Mind is the best organizing principle we know. Only mind can plan, deal with complexities, and choose the best way to deal with a problem.
I agree, Joe. In this book I am reading, the author talks about how the universe is ingenious in how it deals with bad people, and then he seems to think that the universe is random in a later chapter. That's contradictory. If something is ingenious, then it has to come from an organizing mind and it can't be random (this guy seems to be an atheist. He said that he doesn't believe in an afterlife).

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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by The Pixie » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:12 am

Metacrock wrote:you just contradicted yourself, we know about amoebas and they don't have brains, that was my whole point in bringing them into it. Also holds true of slime molds in general.

The bigger point here is that you are not follow the basic logic.

1. All the minds we know of reside in physical human brains

[contradicted by Amoebas and slime molds]
What are you talking about Joe? I have no clue what your logic is here. Are you actually claiming amoaebas have minds? I cannot understand your post to be saying anything else, but I find that quite a remarkable claim. What is your reason for thinking that?
2. Therefore it is reasonable to assume all minds reside in physical human brains

[contradicted by dogs, not human brains]
Then physical biological brains, as I said before. The conclusion is the universe was organised by one or more physical biological brains.

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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by Jim B. » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:22 pm

The Pixie wrote: What are you talking about Joe? I have no clue what your logic is here. Are you actually claiming amoaebas have minds? I cannot understand your post to be saying anything else, but I find that quite a remarkable claim. What is your reason for thinking that?
It depends on how you define 'mind.' Amoebas are sensitive to their surroundings and can act in a goal-directed way. Amoebas may not be conscious the way people are, but then dogs probably aren't either.


Then physical biological brains, as I said before. The conclusion is the universe was organised by one or more physical biological brains.
There's no reason in principle to think that machines cannot have minds. Some would say that some machines already have rudimentary minds. If machines can have minds, then it can't be biological factors that are decisive. It would prbably be a set of functions, an abstract organization which wouldn't be a physical brain at all.

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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by The Pixie » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:58 am

Jim B. wrote:It depends on how you define 'mind.' Amoebas are sensitive to their surroundings and can act in a goal-directed way. Amoebas may not be conscious the way people are, but then dogs probably aren't either.
If you say amoebas have minds, then it is reasonable to say computers do to. Even the controller for a heater is sensitive to its surroundings and can act in a goal-directed way.

Oh, wait, you make the same point:
There's no reason in principle to think that machines cannot have minds. Some would say that some machines already have rudimentary minds. If machines can have minds, then it can't be biological factors that are decisive. It would prbably be a set of functions, an abstract organization which wouldn't be a physical brain at all.
But it still resides in a physical node. However loosely we define mind, there is always some physical structure underlying it, a structure that if damaged will impair the mind, a structure upon which the mind depends.

The conclusion then is that the universe was organised by something that resides in a physical structure.

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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by met » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:24 am

Even physical minds display some neuroplasticity. ....

What if universal mind that is more like a quantum computer?
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by The Pixie » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:26 am

met wrote:Even physical minds display some neuroplasticity. ....

What if universal mind that is more like a quantum computer?
It is not. All the minds we know reside in a physical structure, therefore it must follow that all minds do.

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Re: Mind is the best organizing principle we know.

Post by Jim B. » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:12 pm

The Pixie wrote: But it still resides in a physical node. However loosely we define mind, there is always some physical structure underlying it, a structure that if damaged will impair the mind, a structure upon which the mind depends.

The conclusion then is that the universe was organised by something that resides in a physical structure.
We don't know that it does 'reside' whatever that means. We see mind correlated with physical things but that doesn't tell us much about what's really going on. A child in the 50's would say that his tv shows 'reside' in his tv set. Correlation doesn't always give us the real picture.

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