"Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

Moderator:Metacrock

User avatar
fleetmouse
Posts:1814
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 am
Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:59 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:My ethics professor is a huge fan of "After Virtue." I don't really consider Will to Power to be the best source for Nietzsche. I don't think he even intended to publish it.
He absolutely did not. There's no "it". It's material taken from his notebooks that was never intended to form the body of a single book.
Thus we would not be able to relate to them on that level. The Ubermensch is making a morality for humans with whom he cannot empathise with, thus his "code" become arbitrary.
Agh, it's complicated. Remember the part in Genealogy of Morals where he talks about how a society or individual overflowing with wealth and power can afford to overlook crimes? "What is this to me? Nothing" or words to that effect - don't have the book in front of me - whereas the individual or society in dire straits becomes more retaliative and punitive. For Nietzsche, magnanimity and good will come from inner greatness, and mean spiritedness comes from inner poverty. People who are small in spirit stew and fuss over every slight, real or imagined.

Nietzsche's virtue is the bestowing virtue.
Tell me now: how did gold come to have the highest value? Because it is uncommon and useless and gleaming and mild in its luster; it bestows itself always.
Only as the image of the highest virtue did gold come to have the highest value. Goldlike gleams the gaze of the bestower. Golden luster makes peace between moon and sun.
Uncommon is the highest virtue and useless, it is gleaming and mild in its luster: a bestowing virtue is the highest virtue.
Truly, I guess you well, my disciples: like me you strive for the bestowing virtue. What would you have in common with cats or wolves? [note: predators]
This is your thirst: to become sacrifices and gifts yourselves, and there- fore you thirst to amass all riches in your soul.
Insatiably your soul strives for treasures and gems, because your virtue is insatiable in wanting to bestow.
You compel all things to and into yourselves, so that they may gush back from your well as the gifts of your love.
Indeed, such a bestowing love must become a robber of all values, but hale and holy I call this selfishness.
There is another selfishness, one all too poor, a hungering one that always wants to steal; that selfishness of the sick, the sick selfishness.
With the eye of the thief it looks at all that gleams; with the greed of hunger it eyes those with ample food; and always it creeps around the table of the bestowers.
Sickness speaks out of such craving and invisible degeneration; the thieving greed of this selfishness speaks of a diseased body.
Tell me, my brothers: what do we regard as bad and worst? Is it not degeneration? – And we always diagnose degeneration where the bestowing soul is absent.
He's not talking about material wealth! I guess if you were a thick objectivist you could misread this pretty easily though.
I would seriously recommend After Virtue. It basically helped revive virtue ethics as a major contender.
I will watch out for a copy.

User avatar
mdsimpson92
Posts:2187
Joined:Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:05 pm
Location:Tianjin, China

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:24 am

fleetmouse wrote:Nietzsche's virtue is the bestowing virtue.
Tell me now: how did gold come to have the highest value? Because it is uncommon and useless and gleaming and mild in its luster; it bestows itself always.
Only as the image of the highest virtue did gold come to have the highest value. Goldlike gleams the gaze of the bestower. Golden luster makes peace between moon and sun.
Uncommon is the highest virtue and useless, it is gleaming and mild in its luster: a bestowing virtue is the highest virtue.
Truly, I guess you well, my disciples: like me you strive for the bestowing virtue. What would you have in common with cats or wolves? [note: predators]
This is your thirst: to become sacrifices and gifts yourselves, and there- fore you thirst to amass all riches in your soul.
Insatiably your soul strives for treasures and gems, because your virtue is insatiable in wanting to bestow.
You compel all things to and into yourselves, so that they may gush back from your well as the gifts of your love.
Indeed, such a bestowing love must become a robber of all values, but hale and holy I call this selfishness.
There is another selfishness, one all too poor, a hungering one that always wants to steal; that selfishness of the sick, the sick selfishness.
With the eye of the thief it looks at all that gleams; with the greed of hunger it eyes those with ample food; and always it creeps around the table of the bestowers.
Sickness speaks out of such craving and invisible degeneration; the thieving greed of this selfishness speaks of a diseased body.
Tell me, my brothers: what do we regard as bad and worst? Is it not degeneration? – And we always diagnose degeneration where the bestowing soul is absent.
He's not talking about material wealth! I guess if you were a thick objectivist you could misread this pretty easily though.
quote]
Thank goodness I am not an objectivist. Though I did hear that she was influenced by Nietzsche. Though she probably misinterpreted him like she did Kant.
Why she hates Kant so much utterly escapes me.

By the way,again beautifully written.
Last edited by mdsimpson92 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Julia: It's all... a dream...
Spike Spiegel: Yeah... just a dream...

User avatar
mdsimpson92
Posts:2187
Joined:Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:05 pm
Location:Tianjin, China

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:30 am

fleetmouse wrote:
mdsimpson92 wrote:My ethics professor is a huge fan of "After Virtue." I don't really consider Will to Power to be the best source for Nietzsche. I don't think he even intended to publish it.
He absolutely did not. There's no "it". It's material taken from his notebooks that was never intended to form the body of a single book.
Thus we would not be able to relate to them on that level. The Ubermensch is making a morality for humans with whom he cannot empathise with, thus his "code" become arbitrary.
Agh, it's complicated. Remember the part in Genealogy of Morals where he talks about how a society or individual overflowing with wealth and power can afford to overlook crimes? "What is this to me? Nothing" or words to that effect - don't have the book in front of me - whereas the individual or society in dire straits becomes more retaliative and punitive. For Nietzsche, magnanimity and good will come from inner greatness, and mean spiritedness comes from inner poverty. People who are small in spirit stew and fuss over every slight, real or imagined.

Nietzsche's virtue is the bestowing virtue.

Huh, so he does have a touch of virtue ethics in there (of a kind). And quite a unique version as well. That does seem to make sense, in the sense of being "the bigger man" to put it crudely. That would explain his faulting the priests. There power is that which according to him, comes from their jealousy and, paradoxically, their impotence. (I believed that is how he worded it).
Julia: It's all... a dream...
Spike Spiegel: Yeah... just a dream...

User avatar
mdsimpson92
Posts:2187
Joined:Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:05 pm
Location:Tianjin, China

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:32 am

Metacrock wrote:
mdsimpson92 wrote: My ethics professor is a huge fan of "After Virtue." I don't really consider Will to Power to be the best source for Nietzsche. I don't think he even intended to publish it. Moreover it is because of his Nazi sister that he got the bad rep that he had for decades to come.

Thus we would not be able to relate to them on that level. The Ubermensch is making a morality for humans with whom he cannot empathise with, thus his "code" become arbitrary.

I would seriously recommend After Virtue. It basically helped revive virtue ethics as a major contender.
But it was published. It's part of his work and it shows what he thought and you can't change it.

I hate Neitzche. It's obvious I am the uberminch not him. To prove I' am I torture myself and why torture could worse than posting on CARM?

the N man said the barbarian tortures his neighbor but the uberminch tortures himself. I go a step further, I post on carma nd torture myself and my neighbor.
Lol. :mrgreen: I sense a bit of the priest class there. ;)
Julia: It's all... a dream...
Spike Spiegel: Yeah... just a dream...

User avatar
fleetmouse
Posts:1814
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 am

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:15 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:Thank goodness I am not an objectivist.
I wasn't suggesting you were! I mentioned it in passing because it seemed like a cartoonish reading could be taken in that direction.
Though I did hear that she was influenced by Nietzsche. Though she probably misinterpreted him like she did Kant.
Why she hates Kant so much utterly escapes me.
Quite simply, she was a sophomoric one dimensional hate-saturated pinhead.

User avatar
fleetmouse
Posts:1814
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 am

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:16 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:Lol. :mrgreen: I sense a bit of the priest class there. ;)
Oh no you di'int! :mrgreen:

User avatar
mdsimpson92
Posts:2187
Joined:Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:05 pm
Location:Tianjin, China

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:22 pm

fleetmouse wrote:
mdsimpson92 wrote:Thank goodness I am not an objectivist.
I wasn't suggesting you were! I mentioned it in passing because it seemed like a cartoonish reading could be taken in that direction. .
Sorry, wasn't trying to imply that you were saying that. It would be awful if I were. Oh goodness no. :(
Julia: It's all... a dream...
Spike Spiegel: Yeah... just a dream...

User avatar
mdsimpson92
Posts:2187
Joined:Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:05 pm
Location:Tianjin, China

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:26 pm

By the way. What is your metaethical position, fleetmouse? Subjectivist, realist, noncognitivist,relativist. Sorry if I am just throwing labels out. Nietzsche would have hated me :cry: , I am too systematic in my thought, i have to categorize things and people.
Julia: It's all... a dream...
Spike Spiegel: Yeah... just a dream...

User avatar
fleetmouse
Posts:1814
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 am

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:44 pm

Metacrock wrote:But it was published. It's part of his work and it shows what he thought and you can't change it.
How about if I collect all the venom and bile you've written on messageboards and blogs over the years and publish it? It shows what you thought and you can't change it.

Here's why I doubt the intent of that quote: Nietzsche talked about stages of spiritual development (camel, lion, child) and this was a constant theme in his work. He talked about the need for the thinking man to flee into solitude, but also of the need to go down and engage with mankind afterwards. That was the pattern of his story of Zarathustra.

The quote about the bestowing virtue, and other things he's written presuppose a profound engagement with the world and with his fellow man (or at least a longing for it - Fred himself was a bit of a recluse due to illness and relative poverty). Besides which, Nietzsche is the most sarcastic of philosophers and can turn on a dime, lashing out at something he just finished building up. If that passage on the great man has no context then who knows what he meant.

Nietzsche is not my idol, I disagree with him as often as not (when I can actually divine his intent), but he's incredibly insightful and subtle. You can't pick a few aphorisms or passages, build a caricature out of it and slam him with it. Well, I mean, you can, but it's your loss.

User avatar
fleetmouse
Posts:1814
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 am

Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:56 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:By the way. What is your metaethical position, fleetmouse? Subjectivist, realist, noncognitivist,relativist. Sorry if I am just throwing labels out. Nietzsche would have hated me :cry: , I am too systematic in my thought, i have to categorize things and people.
It's a good habit. I don't believe everything can or should be systematized but you do what you can. ;)

Honestly? I don't know what I think about meta-ethics yet. Is it important to try to make fact-value distinctions there, and is it possible?

Post Reply