"Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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mdsimpson92
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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:32 pm

Speaking of Nietzsche, just read his geneaology of morals. Beautifully written. Relatively reasy to understand, may nitpick on some historical facts that may or may not have been available to him(though he was making general statements so I cant really grudge him that)and it shows that he has issues with the jewish culture (blame shopenhauer for that). Found the strength through impotency idea an interesting theory. Reminds me of the Dao with its non-action. Obviously he was against that, supporting a more aggressive and "nobler" live of the warrior aristocracy in rome and the barbarians. At least in comparison to what sounds like the "slave morality" though he never explicitely references it in this one.
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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:36 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:Actually Dostoyevsky did in fact influence Nietzsche.
Certainly, no doubt about it. And yes, you could call it a preemptive criticism.
I would have issues with the Ubermensch more with its seemingly subjectivist nature that can come across as arbitrary
I still don't see how a value judgement can be anything but subjective.
Somewhat agree with the article (obviously I can't fully agree being religious). Reminds me of Einstein saying that atheism in of itself contributes nothing. Though I think he supported humanism to an extent.
What's interesting to me is the recognition that religion fulfills a need, plays a role. I'm coming to agree with that more and more. Maybe what we need is not no religion but better religion.

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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:57 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:Speaking of Nietzsche, just read his geneaology of morals. Beautifully written. Relatively reasy to understand
Yeah, it's one of the seemingly clearest statements of his ideas, and because of that you want to be cautious. ;)
may nitpick on some historical facts that may or may not have been available to him(though he was making general statements so I cant really grudge him that)
Yes - the little anecdotes are really pulled out of his butt to illustrate his ideas. :mrgreen:
and it shows that he has issues with the jewish culture (blame shopenhauer for that).
Again, you want to be careful. Nietzsche attributes a lot of cultural intelligence and subtlety having emerged from the judeo-christian tradition.
Found the strength through impotency idea an interesting theory. Reminds me of the Dao with its non-action. Obviously he was against that, supporting a more aggressive and "nobler" live of the warrior aristocracy in rome and the barbarians.
Nietzsche's mission was to redeem what was great about the noble tradition - the "good vs. bad" versus "good vs. evil" - but it was not a blind, unthinking endorsement.
At least in comparison to what sounds like the "slave morality" though he never explicitely references it in this one.
He doesn't?! I was sure I saw that phrase in there somewhere. Or maybe I just recognized what he was describing....

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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by Metacrock » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:41 am

Nietzsche's mission was to redeem what was great about the noble tradition - the "good vs. bad" versus "good vs. evil" - but it was not a blind, unthinking endorsement.
that makes it sound like the thought the noble tradition was about good and evil. The reason his work is "Beyond Good and Evil"is becuase he was saying good/evil dichotomy was made up by priests and weak people to control the strong (nobles).

If that's what you are saying sorry. :mrgreen:

Again, you want to be careful. Nietzsche attributes a lot of cultural intelligence and subtlety having emerged from the judeo-christian tradition.
But in a negative way. Like the worm acts crushed when you just start to crush it. he's saying the Christian idea of turn the other cheeks is like the worm, act docile and harmless as a means to manipulate.
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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:28 pm

Metacrock wrote:
Nietzsche's mission was to redeem what was great about the noble tradition - the "good vs. bad" versus "good vs. evil" - but it was not a blind, unthinking endorsement.
that makes it sound like the thought the noble tradition was about good and evil. The reason his work is "Beyond Good and Evil"is becuase he was saying good/evil dichotomy was made up by priests and weak people to control the strong (nobles).

If that's what you are saying sorry. :mrgreen:
For Nietzsche, good vs. bad was the noble distinction. Good vs. evil was the Judeo-Christian distinction. Nietzsche wanted man to recapture the fire and vitality and affirmation-of-life of the noble tradition, but recognized that the "highest" or most spiritual types in his time were a blend of both traditions and deeply conflicted about it - I can't remember an exact quote but will dig one up later.
But in a negative way. Like the worm acts crushed when you just start to crush it. he's saying the Christian idea of turn the other cheeks is like the worm, act docile and harmless as a means to manipulate.
That's an oversimplified view - Nietzsche was not saying that whatever came from Christianity was necessarily bad simply because he called out the bad in Christianity. In BGE he says that the capability for awe and veneration of the sacred is often the best part of people, and that one needs patience and time to understand a book as complex as the Bible. Sorry again, don't have a direct quote handy.

I think Nietzsche was all about being beyond "good and bad" (the noble distinction) as much as being beyond "good and evil".

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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:00 pm

fleetmouse wrote:
mdsimpson92 wrote:Actually Dostoyevsky did in fact influence Nietzsche.
Certainly, no doubt about it. And yes, you could call it a preemptive criticism.
I would have issues with the Ubermensch more with its seemingly subjectivist nature that can come across as arbitrary
I still don't see how a value judgement can be anything but subjective.
Somewhat agree with the article (obviously I can't fully agree being religious). Reminds me of Einstein saying that atheism in of itself contributes nothing. Though I think he supported humanism to an extent.
What's interesting to me is the recognition that religion fulfills a need, plays a role. I'm coming to agree with that more and more. Maybe what we need is not no religion but better religion.
Now you're starting to sound like Spinoza. . . .I like that. :) ;)

I will have to get out my MacIntyre "After Virtue" (recommend it).
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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:03 pm

"MacIntyre’s criticism of Nietzsche is simple and elegant. If the evolved human being rises above other people to arrive at a place where he can ‘create’ values, he removes himself from the human relationships within which values emerge, and therefore can know nothing about value. MacIntyre quotes Nietzsche, from The Will To Power:

'[A great man] wants no ‘sympathetic’ heart, but servants, tools; in his intercourse with men he is always intent on making something out of them. He is incommunicable: he finds it tasteless to be familiar; and when one thinks he is, he usually is not. When not speaking to himself, he wears a mask. He rather lies than tells the truth: it requires more spirit and will. There is a solitude within him that is inaccessible to praise and blame, his own justice that is beyond appeal. (962)'

MacIntyre goes on to say that because "great man" removes himself from the relationships involved in learning and engaging in the practices, he is condemned to "moral solipsism". We can easily see that any severe isolation from society leads to pathology, and the "practices" need have nothing to do with it. We have psychiatric diagnoses for this standpoint: schizoid personality disorder and delusional disorder, grandiose type, and a moment’s reflection is enough to reveal that a life this solitary would be one of misery. In fact, we can see now that this is the source of Raskolnikov’s misery: by committing murder, he cuts himself off from the possibility of any further relatedness to his friends and family. The murder is the final plank in a wall which he had begun building in his isolation with his theories. And it literally takes years before he is able to let Sonya communicate with him again."

Sorry on the issue of subjective I can disagree to an extent because I find moral subjectivism to be somewhat arbitrary in the fact that it is by definition creates morals out of individual view, I am not saying the judgments aren't subjective necessarily, but that I believe that morality does have its own objective existence. Though Nietzsche does seem to have a tint of virtue ethics in his Ubermensch due to the fact that it requires an individual with incredible will. But this man (in Nietzsche's own words) does not relate to other men, but looks down on them in the same way a man looks down at apes.
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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by fleetmouse » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:13 am

Hey, that's pretty good! I haven't read either Will to Power or anything by Macintyre... It's important to remember that Will to Power isn't a book - it's scraped together out of notes by his sister, so a quote from it is doubly decontextualized.

A society of apes though, were it able, would doubtlessly view the first men as pathological mutants. What are they doing in those big heads! And what are those marks on flat surfaces? It's most un-apely.

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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by mdsimpson92 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:21 am

fleetmouse wrote:Hey, that's pretty good! I haven't read either Will to Power or anything by Macintyre... It's important to remember that Will to Power isn't a book - it's scraped together out of notes by his sister, so a quote from it is doubly decontextualized.

A society of apes though, were it able, would doubtlessly view the first men as pathological mutants. What are they doing in those big heads! And what are those marks on flat surfaces? It's most un-apely.
My ethics professor is a huge fan of "After Virtue." I don't really consider Will to Power to be the best source for Nietzsche. I don't think he even intended to publish it. Moreover it is because of his Nazi sister that he got the bad rep that he had for decades to come.

Thus we would not be able to relate to them on that level. The Ubermensch is making a morality for humans with whom he cannot empathise with, thus his "code" become arbitrary.

I would seriously recommend After Virtue. It basically helped revive virtue ethics as a major contender.
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Re: "Art is a lie that tells the truth" -- Pablo Picasso

Post by Metacrock » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:53 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Hey, that's pretty good! I haven't read either Will to Power or anything by Macintyre... It's important to remember that Will to Power isn't a book - it's scraped together out of notes by his sister, so a quote from it is doubly decontextualized.

A society of apes though, were it able, would doubtlessly view the first men as pathological mutants. What are they doing in those big heads! And what are those marks on flat surfaces? It's most un-apely.
My ethics professor is a huge fan of "After Virtue." I don't really consider Will to Power to be the best source for Nietzsche. I don't think he even intended to publish it. Moreover it is because of his Nazi sister that he got the bad rep that he had for decades to come.

Thus we would not be able to relate to them on that level. The Ubermensch is making a morality for humans with whom he cannot empathise with, thus his "code" become arbitrary.

I would seriously recommend After Virtue. It basically helped revive virtue ethics as a major contender.
But it was published. It's part of his work and it shows what he thought and you can't change it.

I hate Neitzche. It's obvious I am the uberminch not him. To prove I' am I torture myself and why torture could worse than posting on CARM?

the N man said the barbarian tortures his neighbor but the uberminch tortures himself. I go a step further, I post on carma nd torture myself and my neighbor.
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