IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Hazard
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IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Hazard » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:49 am

The Bible teaches that the heavens cannot be measured and the host of heaven, (angles) cannot be counted (Jermiah 31:37; 33:22-25). If this is true, and if one believes God's Word, then the material universe is vast beyond human conception, and as God has existed from all eternity it is also hard to concieve that He only decided a few millenniums ago to do something.

God never forces anyone to believe His Word if they do not want to. He does encourage us to do so, but it is entirely up to us. As free moral agents we can either believe it or not. This is not my pet theory, my interpretation, and neither am I asking anyone to believe what i have put up. All I am doing is quoting Scripture straight out of the Bible.

In answer to this question the Bible tells us that, "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," it does not say "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught by man. Does anyone know just when the beginning was? If anyone does know, then they know more than God as revealed. If no one knows just when the beginning was then it stands to reason that we just do not know and therefore, we should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as any man knows it could have been six billion years ago.

When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life in Earth, we can speak with definate authority that it was 6,000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam.

Some teachers use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6,000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages. In these Scriptures the Hebrew, asah, meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word bara, to creat. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days, and not the original creation "In the beginning." Asah never means to create.

Undoubtedly, God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care as in the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures, after its destruction and ruin caused by the first war ever fought. This war was a cataclismic battle between God and Satan, when Lucifer invaded Heaven to cast God out. Satan was defeated and cast back down to the Earth, as is written in Isa. 14:12-14; Luke 10:18. This war was fought long before the days of Adam, for Lucifer was already a fallen creature when he came into Adams Eden. For an unknown period, there was an original social system on this Earth ruled by Lucifer as proved in (Isa. 14:12-14; 45:18; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; 2 Pet. 3:5-7). Along with this origional social system there were land animals, birds, fish, and other creatures created, and they were destroyed in the flood of Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-7. It is to this period that all fossils and remains of animals belong, as well as geological formations of the Earth.
Between these original creation's of God, "In the beginning' and the creations of the six days, is revealed the rule of Lucifer on the earth for an unknown period, his rebellion against God, the Earth's first sinful career, the defeat of Lucifer by God, and the overthrow of his kingdom by the first recorded flood on the earth in Gen. 1:2. Lucifer was the first ruler on the earth and he already had his period of Earth rule and his fall by the time of Adam.

In the work of the six days, it is stated that God with His hands FORMED each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13). It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear the God FORMED all things with His hands. God formed both light anddarkness (Isa. 24:7). He did not do this on the first day of Gen 1:3-5, for at that time He merely DIVIDED them. Therefore THEY MUST HAVE BEEN CREATED AND FORMED before the first day. It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps. 8:3, 6; 90:2; 95:5); the heavens (Ps. 8:3; 9:1; 102:25; Isa. 40:12; the planets (Ps.8:3; Isa. 40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov. 26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation af all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands God formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, as God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands. (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet. 3:3-9; Prov. 26:10).

Judging from what was done by God in six days, it took God a long time to originnaly create or bring into existence the material and use it to form with His hands each sun, moon, star, planet, and each creature that inhabits the vast endless universe. God took one day to merely divide the light from the darkness on this little planet Earth. How much time He originally took to bring into existence all the light and darkness of the entire universe is not known, but evidently He took a longer time than one day. God took one day to divide the waters which covered the Earth and restore the firmament and took one day to restore the earth and set bounds to the seas, therefore He naturally took a much longer period to originally bring the materials into existence and form the waters, the firmament, and the earth with its many mountains and valleys. God took one day to complete solar regulation in connection with the restored Earth, but He evidently used a much longer period to originally bring into existence and form with His own hands the vast heavens and all the suns, moons, stars, galaxies and each of their individual planets that are without number. God took two days to form the fish, fowls, beasts,, man and woman. He naturally took a much longer period to originally create and form each inhabitant of the vast heavens and the many animals and inhabitants who originally lived on the Earth during Lucifer's kingdom, long before the chaos of Gen 1:2 and the six days of Gen.1:3-2-25.

In other words, if God took six days to restore one little planet to a habitable state and form new inhabitants for the earth, He would naturally take a much longer time to originally create and form with His hands the vast universe with all of its innumerable suns and planets along with their inhabitants.

One has to ask, why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and why doe fundamental Christianity believe and teach that the Bible says it is only six thousand years old? Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.

God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).
I believe this doctrin is too simple for most men to understand and this is why many reject it.. 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because: If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.
Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.
What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?
This is the doctrin of which many men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).
Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by unred typo » Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:46 am

The Bible teaches that the heavens cannot be measured and the host of heaven, (angles) cannot be counted (Jermiah 31:37; 33:22-25). If this is true, and if one believes God's Word, then the material universe is vast beyond human conception, and as God has existed from all eternity it is also hard to concieve that He only decided a few millenniums ago to do something.
That’s true. We don’t know what he was doing before the beginning of our universe.
God never forces anyone to believe His Word if they do not want to. He does encourage us to do so, but it is entirely up to us. As free moral agents we can either believe it or not. This is not my pet theory, my interpretation, and neither am I asking anyone to believe what i have put up. All I am doing is quoting Scripture straight out of the Bible.
That’s what they all say though….
In answer to this question the Bible tells us that, "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," it does not say "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught by man. Does anyone know just when the beginning was? If anyone does know, then they know more than God as revealed. If no one knows just when the beginning was then it stands to reason that we just do not know and therefore, we should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as any man knows it could have been six billion years ago.
No mention in scripture of what happened before the beginning of life on earth. This is true, too. I disagree that we can’t say that our earth was created 6,000 years ago. It was without form, the waters were not separated from the land yet and even the darkness was not separated from the light.
When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life in Earth, we can speak with definate authority that it was 6,000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam.
Agreed. I’m a die hard young earth creationist, but I try to keep an open mind for nuances in the scriptural interpretations.
Some teachers use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6,000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages. In these Scriptures the Hebrew, asah, meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word bara, to creat. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days, and not the original creation "In the beginning." Asah never means to create.
Ok, I see what you’re saying now. I don’t know where it came from, this created material unless it was tossed out from some earlier creation that wasn’t part of what God is calling ‘the heavens and the earth’ here. It does say the heavens and the earth were created on week 1, of our beginning, or at least our universes.
Undoubtedly, God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care as in the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures, after its destruction and ruin caused by the first war ever fought. This war was a cataclismic battle between God and Satan, when Lucifer invaded Heaven to cast God out. Satan was defeated and cast back down to the Earth, as is written in Isa. 14:12-14; Luke 10:18. This war was fought long before the days of Adam, for Lucifer was already a fallen creature when he came into Adams Eden. For an unknown period, there was an original social system on this Earth ruled by Lucifer as proved in (Isa. 14:12-14; 45:18; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; 2 Pet. 3:5-7).
Jasher talks about this war and the creatures that were the result of angels and humans marrying but in Jasher this is after Adam and Eve were created. How long does a war with God last? I bet it would be like the fight that was a knockout in the first round. The fall to earth, probably was faster than the speed of lightning. Then a short time to tempt Adam and Eve and get them tossed out of Eden. Then the years that it took to multiply until the sons of God saw the daughters of men were fair and take them as mates. These offspring grew to be giant monster creatures. I’m just going from memory here. I could be wrong about the details. Some of the proportions are clearly exaggerated or mistranslated so I won‘t even quote them.

Along with this origional social system there were land animals, birds, fish, and other creatures created, and they were destroyed in the flood of Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-7. It is to this period that all fossils and remains of animals belong, as well as geological formations of the Earth.
Or it could be as Jasher says, and there was a partial flooding of 1/3 of the earth by the overflowing of the River Gihon. This would also account for the fossils and creatures that God chose to eliminate from the preflood world.
Between these original creation's of God, "In the beginning' and the creations of the six days, is revealed the rule of Lucifer on the earth for an unknown period, his rebellion against God, the Earth's first sinful career, the defeat of Lucifer by God, and the overthrow of his kingdom by the first recorded flood on the earth in Gen. 1:2. Lucifer was the first ruler on the earth and he already had his period of Earth rule and his fall by the time of Adam.
I can understand your reasoning here, to accommodate the fossil ‘record’ but the previous partial floodings and droughts of the world in Jasher accounts for them.
In the work of the six days, it is stated that God with His hands FORMED each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13). It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear the God FORMED all things with His hands. God formed both light anddarkness (Isa. 24:7). He did not do this on the first day of Gen 1:3-5, for at that time He merely DIVIDED them. Therefore THEY MUST HAVE BEEN CREATED AND FORMED before the first day. It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps. 8:3, 6; 90:2; 95:5); the heavens (Ps. 8:3; 9:1; 102:25; Isa. 40:12; the planets (Ps.8:3; Isa. 40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov. 26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation af all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands God formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, as God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands. (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet. 3:3-9; Prov. 26:10).
OK, I can see this could be but I can also see that would be why it took as long to make the sun and planets and moon as it did to make all of the creatures in their complexity on the other days. Stretching out the cosmos must take a while, and forming the basic materials to bring the animals from, would be a tricky operation from nothingness. Just a guess, LOL.
Judging from what was done by God in six days, it took God a long time to originnaly create or bring into existence the material and use it to form with His hands each sun, moon, star, planet, and each creature that inhabits the vast endless universe. God took one day to merely divide the light from the darkness on this little planet Earth. How much time He originally took to bring into existence all the light and darkness of the entire universe is not known, but evidently He took a longer time than one day. God took one day to divide the waters which covered the Earth and restore the firmament and took one day to restore the earth and set bounds to the seas, therefore He naturally took a much longer period to originally bring the materials into existence and form the waters, the firmament, and the earth with its many mountains and valleys. God took one day to complete solar regulation in connection with the restored Earth, but He evidently used a much longer period to originally bring into existence and form with His own hands the vast heavens and all the suns, moons, stars, galaxies and each of their individual planets that are without number. God took two days to form the fish, fowls, beasts,, man and woman. He naturally took a much longer period to originally create and form each inhabitant of the vast heavens and the many animals and inhabitants who originally lived on the Earth during Lucifer's kingdom, long before the chaos of Gen 1:2 and the six days of Gen.1:3-2-25.
Ok, I guess I should have read ahead. Makes sense. About what I said, that I should have read first. Our timing is just skewed, that’s all.
In other words, if God took six days to restore one little planet to a habitable state and form new inhabitants for the earth, He would naturally take a much longer time to originally create and form with His hands the vast universe with all of its innumerable suns and planets along with their inhabitants.
Or it just took him that long to do it the first time and there was only one creation.
One has to ask, why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and why doe fundamental Christianity believe and teach that the Bible says it is only six thousand years old? Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.
One only has to ask that if one trusts science to make a judgment as to what a 6000 year old rock looks like, against what a gazillion year old rock looks like. Actually, they can’t even tell a piece of lava from a known flow from some supposedly a million years ago, unless they have all the answers to the test before they do it.
God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).
Ok, but before I can see how this has to take more than the allotted time frame given in the first week, I‘m going to have to actually look up all these verses. And yes, I know, God had to be doing something before then, and who knows, it could be just that, but the beginning of the heavens and the earth has got to be the beginning of the heavens and the earth, imho. I haven’t really studied much about Lucifer, just in passing. There is an unknown time period where Lucifer could have ruled the earth outside of the garden of Eden, while Adam had the garden to care for and that could have been a few years even.
Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).
I must admit that theory goes better with science, but every time I’ve listened to scientific explanations, I run across fatal flaws that everything seems to hinge on. Pull that little pin and the whole house of cards falls.
Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).
Ok. Not bad. Like I say, got to do the scripture lookups and head is full of soggy cotton or something. Bad ol head cold.
I believe this doctrin is too simple for most men to understand and this is why many reject it.. 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because: If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.
Unless there was some kind of physical “windows of heaven” that were broken up, making the heavens that then were, destroyed?
Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.
What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?
This is the doctrin of which many men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).
Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.
Well, I'm not a scoffer or willingly ignorant but I like to get at an idea from all angles before I accept anything that's not straight out of scripture, without additions. Even if there aren't any. ;)
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by QuantumTroll » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:46 pm

Here's my response as an atheist with a strong interest in all things science. You can take it or leave it, I don't feel like a debate about it, I just want to present my understanding of what scientists have discovered.

If Unred Typo is so inclined, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on why there's such a disconnect between what scientists see in the world and what you learn from the Bible. The key point to address, of course, is that science (ideally!) verifies that its discoveries make sense in light of all the other scientific discoveries.

One final disclaimer: I'm not a cosmologist, and I'm definitely ignorant of the real state of the science.

The universe is very large. It's like 15 billion years old, and during the first few moments it experienced so-called 'hyperinflation'. Space ballooned out very quickly, then the expansion slowed down to a more 'normal' pace which is, in turn, slowly increasing. Since the universe (by which I mean the stuff produced in the Big Bang) has a finite age and is expanding at a finite rate, it has a finite size. But wait, there's more!

Space and time themselves were created (are being created?) by the Big Bang. There is no space outside the Big Bang, just like there's no more North than the North Pole. So even though the universe is finite, you can never actually "see" an edge. I suppose you could call the beginning of time an "edge", but in this case you can't ever really reach it. The closer we get, the harder it becomes to take the next step, just like approaching the speed of light. But wait, there's more!

Given that period of hyperinflation, there might be parts of the universe that are outside of the scope of our experience. The light of these distant realms simply hasn't had time to reach us, so it's impossible for us to know anything about what's going on there, and positivists would say that these realms don't really exist. Similarly, the farthest reaches of the observable universe are receding from us the fastest. Since this trend is only going to continue, the amount of stuff in the observable universe is kind of fading away at the edges. The total amount of space we see is increasing, but part of that space is expanding away too fast, so we lose sight of it. Again, logical positivists would say that such unobservable stuff doesn't exist at all.

Let's see, what am I missing? Oh yeah, they've attempted to determine the "shape" of the universe. Basically, what would happen if you start going out in one direction and kept going? Um, I don't remember the conclusion of that investigation, or even if a conclusion has been reached, but the thought experiments are deliciously twisted... imagine going out one way and finding yourself back where you started, except everything is mirrored!

You might also wonder how they know some of these things. My answer is a resounding MATH. Frankly, I can't do the math required (though I'm learning more every day), nor do I know the details of the theories, so I'll just leave it at that.

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Hazard » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:27 pm

"Unless there was some kind of physical “windows of heaven” that were broken up, making the heavens that then were, destroyed?"
.

Hi unred,

I believe it was our immediate solar system that was turned off, not the galaxies and suns of the entire universe. God formed both light and darkness (Isa. 24:7). He did not do this on earth the first day of Gen 1:3-5, for at that time He merely DIVIDED them. To have divided them they must have been created and formed before the first day of God's recreation of the Earth to be divided.

I put this question up on another site. I believe it is unanswerable, and being unanswerable, the non-answer shows God has been creating throughout the entire eternity past, and will continue creating for eternity future.

Scripture teaches that God is eternal, no beginning, no end. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

Scripture teaches, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1). "The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:2-3).

"In the beginning was the Word," (John 1;1) and "In the beginning God created." (Gen. 1:1). Syncronizing these two Scriptures, "In the beginning," can we say with any confidence when God began creating anything? Jesus said that He and His Father work, "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17). "In the beginning" He was, "In the beginning" He created? Did either one "in the beginning," (Gen. 1:1), begin before the other "In the beginning" (John 1:1)? If man could get his finite mind around that question man could work out when God started creating, and if we can work out when God started creating we could work out when God began, 'If He had a beginning at all.' Scripture shows He had no beginning, so;

Was it "In the beginning" was the Word? or was it "In the beginning God created"?

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Diaconeo » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:04 pm

I have a theology question that begs to be answered according the the theory that the earth was reformed rather than created from nothing and immediately followed by six days of creation (though according to this thread's theory it was re-created). The question is this:

If the heavens and the earth were reformed after "a cataclismic battle between God and Satan" thus bringing death into the world by said battle, how can God state that death came into the world through the sin of Adam? According to the 're-creation' theory, death and sin would necessarily have had to enter into the world before Adam's disobedience.

In Christ,
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Who do business on Great Waters;
They have seen the Works of the Lord,
And His Wonders in the Deep." Ps. 107:23,24

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Hazard » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:30 pm

Diaconeo wrote:I have a theology question that begs to be answered according the the theory that the earth was reformed rather than created from nothing and immediately followed by six days of creation (though according to this thread's theory it was re-created). The question is this:

If the heavens and the earth were reformed after "a cataclismic battle between God and Satan" thus bringing death into the world by said battle, how can God state that death came into the world through the sin of Adam? According to the 're-creation' theory, death and sin would necessarily have had to enter into the world before Adam's disobedience.

In Christ,
Matthew
The heavens and the Earth were originally created by God. God placed the Arc-angel Lucifer in charge. Lucifer led a rebellion against God. Lucifer was defeated and God then "Earth" was destroyed by a flood and massive earthquake. God did not deastroy the heavens. The only thing God changed in the heavens was that our immediate sun was blocked out. God after a time not revealed in Scripture, restored the Earth in six days, created Adam and Eve, and then allowd Lucifer, now satan to tempt him before He would give him further responsibilities. Adam failed the test and in so doing sin again entered the world. Had Adam not failed, life would have continued as God had planed, and to which God's plan for man is now heading. God will again put down all sin and rebellion at Jesus's return and usher in eternal peace.

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by unred typo » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:14 pm

But, Haz, you didn't explain where death comes in? :? Death was supposed to start with Adam, no?
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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Hazard » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:39 am

unred typo wrote:But, Haz, you didn't explain where death comes in? :? Death was supposed to start with Adam, no?
Had Adam not failed God he and his offspring would have lived forever. Because Adam sined, and the penalty for sin is death, he brought upon himself and his offspring death. Jesus came and paid this penalty for mankind.

This is where death came into the equasion.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17).

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die" (Gen. 3:3).

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22).

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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:19 am

Hazard wrote:
Diaconeo wrote:I have a theology question that begs to be answered according the the theory that the earth was reformed rather than created from nothing and immediately followed by six days of creation (though according to this thread's theory it was re-created). The question is this:

If the heavens and the earth were reformed after "a cataclismic battle between God and Satan" thus bringing death into the world by said battle, how can God state that death came into the world through the sin of Adam? According to the 're-creation' theory, death and sin would necessarily have had to enter into the world before Adam's disobedience.

In Christ,
Matthew
The heavens and the Earth were originally created by God. God placed the Arc-angel Lucifer in charge. Lucifer led a rebellion against God. Lucifer was defeated and God then "Earth" was destroyed by a flood and massive earthquake. God did not deastroy the heavens. The only thing God changed in the heavens was that our immediate sun was blocked out. God after a time not revealed in Scripture, restored the Earth in six days, created Adam and Eve, and then allowd Lucifer, now satan to tempt him before He would give him further responsibilities. Adam failed the test and in so doing sin again entered the world. Had Adam not failed, life would have continued as God had planed, and to which God's plan for man is now heading. God will again put down all sin and rebellion at Jesus's return and usher in eternal peace.

that's not what the text says
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Re: IS THE UNIVERSE INFINATE?

Post by Hazard » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:13 pm

Metacrock wrote:
Hazard wrote:
Diaconeo wrote:I have a theology question that begs to be answered according the the theory that the earth was reformed rather than created from nothing and immediately followed by six days of creation (though according to this thread's theory it was re-created). The question is this:

If the heavens and the earth were reformed after "a cataclismic battle between God and Satan" thus bringing death into the world by said battle, how can God state that death came into the world through the sin of Adam? According to the 're-creation' theory, death and sin would necessarily have had to enter into the world before Adam's disobedience.

In Christ,
Matthew
The heavens and the Earth were originally created by God. God placed the Arc-angel Lucifer in charge. Lucifer led a rebellion against God. Lucifer was defeated and God then "Earth" was destroyed by a flood and massive earthquake. God did not deastroy the heavens. The only thing God changed in the heavens was that our immediate sun was blocked out. God after a time not revealed in Scripture, restored the Earth in six days, created Adam and Eve, and then allowd Lucifer, now satan to tempt him before He would give him further responsibilities. Adam failed the test and in so doing sin again entered the world. Had Adam not failed, life would have continued as God had planed, and to which God's plan for man is now heading. God will again put down all sin and rebellion at Jesus's return and usher in eternal peace.

that's not what the text says
In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

According to Isiah 14:12-14; Ezek 28:11-17; Luke 10:18; 2 Pet. 3:4-8; Jer. 4:23-26; and in other passages, Satan known as Lucifer, had a kingdom on the Earth long before the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25 and the creation of Aam. These passages reveal that he through pride, fell and led an invasion of Heaven and was defeated. At that time the earth was cursed and all life was destroyed by the first flood, as in Gen. 1:2.

How long Lucifer ruled the Earth in perfect harmony with the kingdom of God is not revealed, but it was for a long period, for it took a long time to work up such a rebellion as he did. He caused over one third of God's own angels to rebel with him as well. It is shown in Scripture that the fall of Lucifer and the rebellion against God of one third of His own angels, and all the people who lived on the Earth over whom Satan ruled caused God to totally destroy this social system and flood the Earth.

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

Satan and his rebells were naturally defeated, the Earth cursed and flooded as in Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-7). All life was totally destroyed, including birds, men, vegetation, all the cities were destroyed in which the people lived (Jer. 4:23-26).

In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth (Gen 1:1). Then, after Gen. 1:1. all the above occured as later mentioned in all these Scriptures (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; Luke 10:18; 1 Tim. 3:6; 2 Peter 3: 4-13). God then recreated the Earth in six days, as in Gen. 1:3-2:25, and He told Adam to REPLENISH the Earth, not plenish the Earth.

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