Omnipotence of God

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Omnipotence of God

Post by unred typo » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:40 pm

Here is a post by Hazard, on the Other Board, and being less than numinously minded, I thought I’d drop it in here and see what you all came up with. I know Hazard won’t mind us discussing it. We’re talking about the omnipotence of God and just what it means. He wrote:
Presence is governed by relationship, not bodily sight. When a body of anyone is not literally present, one cannot say that it is present. The presence of two persons may be felt though thousands of miles may separate them bodily. In such a case, presence consists of union, relationship, memory, acquaintance, and association to the same end in life. The closer two persons are to each other in any relationship, the more they feel each others presence in the thought life. So it is with God. God dwells in Heaven and persons on Earth that know Him and are in union with Him in spirit can feel His presence in their lives regardless of where they are on the Earth. This is what is meant by statements men use to prove God personally fills the whole of space and matter. In Psalm 139:7 the paslmist said, "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from they presence?" God said to Jeremiah, "Do not I fill the heaven and earth?" (Jer. 23:23-24). Paul said, "In Him I live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:27-28). We must understand all like passages, as teaching the omnipresence of God, but not the omnibody of God. My family is many miles away from me at this time. They are in my thoughts, my plans, my life, and all that I do. I do nothing without them, yet they are far away. I am building a new home for them to move into. I plan for them. I see them in the new home. I experience the thrill of having them with me soon. They are here in spirit and presence, planing with me, and we are working together to the same end in life. This presence is constant, though distance separates us bodily. I do not feel the presence of other families I have never met and to which these is no union whatsoever. If I would become acquainted and closley associated with someone whom I do not now know, I could likewise feel their presence, even though we were sometimes separated bodily. Thus presence is governed by relationship, not bodily presence. Man has the same faculty that God has to make his presence felt by others, only it is on a finite scale. God's attributes of presence is infinate, but it workes literally on the same principle as that of man. It is governed by relationship and knowledge as well as bodily sight.
Men who do not know God seldom if ever, feel His presence. They never do except as their creative spirit begins to think of where they came from, why they are here, and where they are going; when they give the Holy Spirit on Earth a chance to reason with them; when there are times of serious meditation; when some trouble comes; or when someone brings the knowledge of God to them. Then they know know that there is a real God some place. They do not really realize and feel His presence, though, untill they get to know about Him and they begin to conform to His will. Then the presence of God becomes a reality and they can feel Him everywhere they go. The more one thinks of God and lives for Him, the more His presence is manifest in the conscience. Men can worship God at any time and place and their union with God in spirit will make the presence of God real. The greater the knowledgeof God and the consecration to Him, the greater His presence is felt. In this sense Jesus Himself, who has a flesh and bone body and who is local in body, oneplace at a time, is with all men everywhere even to the end of the age (Matt. 28:19-20). In this same sense Paul was with the Corinthians in spirit when they delivered the fornicator to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor. 5:1-8). In this sense, Paul and other believers dwelled in eachother regardless of personal distance from each other (2 Cor. 7:3; Phil. 1:7). We know the personal body of Christ, or those of believers, are not omnipresent when they are in the lives of others in spirit presence so the same is true of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I feel your presence even though you live on the other side of this globe. I know you will read this post as I read yours. We are getting to know each others traits and understanding of different doctrines as we progress towards our eternal destination. We learn from each other, I know a little about you as you are learning a little about me, yet we are thousands of miles apart and have never met bodily. I sit here and wonder how you will take what I have written here in this particular post. This is a presence we have with each other even though we are thousands of miles apart.

God is not a universal mind, impersonal, intangible, and unreal person. God is not omni-body, that is, His body is not everywhere at once at the same time. His body is just as visible, tangible, and material as the bodies of all other SPIRIT beings. Even Resurrected bodies of flesh-and -bone saints are called "Spiritual," "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44), so spiritual bodies are of materialized, spiritualized substance, something we know nothing about, as far as experience is concerned at the present time. Furthermore, the soul and spirit or the inner man is just as spiritual as God and angels. The inner man out of the body which is the outer man, is a spiritual body itself and has been seen with bodily parts to correspond with those of the outer man. The inner man or spiritual part of one person, after leaving the physical body, has been seen by another such spiritual part, as being fully conscious, capable of wearing cloths, being carried by other spirit beings into material places of either rest and comfort or torment (Luke 16:19-31; Eph. 4:8; Heb. 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Metacrock » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:54 pm

unred typo wrote:Here is a post by Hazard, on the Other Board, and being less than numinously minded, I thought I’d drop it in here and see what you all came up with. I know Hazard won’t mind us discussing it. We’re talking about the omnipotence of God and just what it means. He wrote:
Presence is governed by relationship, not bodily sight. When a body of anyone is not literally present, one cannot say that it is present. The presence of two persons may be felt though thousands of miles may separate them bodily. In such a case, presence consists of union, relationship, memory, acquaintance, and association to the same end in life. The closer two persons are to each other in any relationship, the more they feel each others presence in the thought life. So it is with God. God dwells in Heaven and persons on Earth that know Him and are in union with Him in spirit can feel His presence in their lives regardless of where they are on the Earth.
It is not as though God is off in some other place and we just feel some extension of him on earth. God doesn't have a body and is not limited to a local. God is everywhere so of course we can feel the presence of God everywhere.
This is what is meant by statements men use to prove God personally fills the whole of space and matter. In Psalm 139:7 the paslmist said, "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from they presence?" God said to Jeremiah, "Do not I fill the heaven and earth?" (Jer. 23:23-24). Paul said, "In Him I live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:27-28). We must understand all like passages, as teaching the omnipresence of God, but not the omnibody of God. My family is many miles away from me at this time. They are in my thoughts, my plans, my life, and all that I do. I do nothing without them, yet they are far away. I am building a new home for them to move into. I plan for them. I see them in the new home. I experience the thrill of having them with me soon. They are here in spirit and presence, planing with me, and we are working together to the same end in life. This presence is constant, though distance separates us bodily. I do not feel the presence of other families I have never met and to which these is no union whatsoever. If I would become acquainted and closley associated with someone whom I do not now know, I could likewise feel their presence, even though we were sometimes separated bodily. Thus presence is governed by relationship, not bodily presence. Man has the same faculty that God has to make his presence felt by others, only it is on a finite scale. God's attributes of presence is infinate, but it workes literally on the same principle as that of man. It is governed by relationship and knowledge as well as bodily sight.
Men who do not know God seldom if ever, feel His presence. They never do except as their creative spirit begins to think of where they came from, why they are here, and where they are going; when they give the Holy Spirit on Earth a chance to reason with them; when there are times of serious meditation; when some trouble comes; or when someone brings the knowledge of God to them. Then they know know that there is a real God some place. They do not really realize and feel His presence, though, untill they get to know about Him and they begin to conform to His will. Then the presence of God becomes a reality and they can feel Him everywhere they go. The more one thinks of God and lives for Him, the more His presence is manifest in the conscience. Men can worship God at any time and place and their union with God in spirit will make the presence of God real. The greater the knowledgeof God and the consecration to Him, the greater His presence is felt. In this sense Jesus Himself, who has a flesh and bone body and who is local in body, oneplace at a time, is with all men everywhere even to the end of the age (Matt. 28:19-20). In this same sense Paul was with the Corinthians in spirit when they delivered the fornicator to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor. 5:1-8). In this sense, Paul and other believers dwelled in eachother regardless of personal distance from each other (2 Cor. 7:3; Phil. 1:7). We know the personal body of Christ, or those of believers, are not omnipresent when they are in the lives of others in spirit presence so the same is true of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I feel your presence even though you live on the other side of this globe. I know you will read this post as I read yours. We are getting to know each others traits and understanding of different doctrines as we progress towards our eternal destination. We learn from each other, I know a little about you as you are learning a little about me, yet we are thousands of miles apart and have never met bodily. I sit here and wonder how you will take what I have written here in this particular post. This is a presence we have with each other even though we are thousands of miles apart.
God is not a universal mind, impersonal, intangible, and unreal person.
why would you equate mind with being impersonal? why would equate it with being unreal? Don't realize that the only thing you sense in others is mind, not body? bodies are not personal, minds are personal.

but that's problematic to speak of "personal." I think that's the wrong term. what you really mean is "conscious."


God is not omni-body, that is, His body is not everywhere at once at the same time. His body is just as visible, tangible, and material as the bodies of all other SPIRIT beings.

are you a mormon? Not that you aren't welcome here all the same. but of course God does not have a body. God can't be localized, that would be absurd. I don't mean to put down your view point, but I wold find it absurd.

Even Resurrected bodies of flesh-and -bone saints are called "Spiritual," "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44), so spiritual bodies are of materialized, spiritualized substance, something we know nothing about, as far as experience is concerned at the present time.

I thought you said they were flesh and blood?

Furthermore, the soul and spirit or the inner man is just as spiritual as God and angels. The inner man out of the body which is the outer man, is a spiritual body itself and has been seen with bodily parts to correspond with those of the outer man. The inner man or spiritual part of one person, after leaving the physical body, has been seen by another such spiritual part, as being fully conscious, capable of wearing cloths, being carried by other spirit beings into material places of either rest and comfort or torment (Luke 16:19-31; Eph. 4:8; Heb. 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).
[/quote]

I don't see any necessity in any of this. If we have spiritual bodies do we have spiritual spleens? I don't think so. Spirit is mind, and body is not necessary. We are thoughts in the mind of God. God is not impersonal but "personal" implies personality, and personality is pathological. God is not the product of biology so he need not have a body. sould is just a metaphor and spirit is mind.
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Metacrock » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:56 pm

from "the other board." what board?
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Hazard » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:06 pm

Hi mate.

Unred is talking about a discussion on worthy boards which was shut down because the guys there became frustrated because of their lack of answers on this doctrin.. No, I am not Mormon, never was, never will be. I know of them but nothing about them or their beliefs and teaching. The truth is I know nothing about any church except the catholic, which was the church my father attended whilst he was alive during my childhood. I am non-denominational. I have nothing to do with any church at all and never attend any. My limited knowledge is come from personal Bible study over many years, nothing more.

The following Scriptures and many more which i can dredge up shows me, at least, if no one else, that God has a spirit body with bodily parts like a man. This is proved by hundreds of Scriptures that do not need interpretation. God is a Spirit being, infinate, eternal, immutable, self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invisible, impartian, imortal, absolutly holy, full of wisdom, full of knowledge, and just in all things. God is known in Scripture by over two hundred names. He is describes as being like any other person as to having a body, soul, and spirit (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-7). He is a spirit being with a body (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6, 9-19, Exodus 24:11; Gen. 18' 32:24-32; Ezek. 1:26-28; Acts 7:54-59; Rev. 4:2-4; 5:1, 5-7; 22:4-5); shape (John 5:37); form (Phil. 2:5-7, same Greek word as in Mark 16:12, which refers to bodily form); and an image and likeness of a man (Gen. 1:26; 9:6; Ezek. 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7; jas. 3:9; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6).

He has a heart (Gen. 6:6; 8:21); hands and fingers (Exod. 31:18; Psalms 8:3-6; Rev. 5:1, 6-7); Nostrils (Ps. 18:8); mouth (Num. 12:8); lips and toung (Isa. 30:27; feet (Ezek. 1:27; Exodus 24:10); eyes, eyelids, sight (Ps. 11:4; 18:24; 33:18); voice (Ps. 29; Rev. 10:3-4; Gen. 1); breath (Gen. 2:70; ears (Ps. 18:6); head, hair, face, arms (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1; loins (Ezek. 1:26:28; 8:1-4); bodily presence (Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Exodus 24:10-11); and many other bodily parts as required by Him to be a person with a body.

God goes from place to place just like any one else (Gen. 3:8; 11:5; 18:1-22, 33; 19:24; 32:24-32; 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Titus 2:13). God is omnipresent but not omnibody, that is His presence can be felt everywhere but His body is not everywhere. God wears cloths (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; God eats food (Gen. 18:1-22; Exodus 24:11).

There is not one Scripture in the Bible which states that God is intangible, immaterial, without a body, or bodily parts, and pasions except John 4:24, "God is a spirit," and this certainly does not teach that He is without a body.

Paul speaks of the human flesh and bone bodies in the resurrection as being "Spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:42-44), like unto Christs glorious body (Luke 24:39; Phil. 3:20-21); so if human bodies that become spiritualized are still material and tangible, then cretianly God and other spirits have bodies just as real and still be spirit beings. John 4:24 is a statement of fact that God is a Spirit, but it does not define or analyze a spirit. Jesus has a resurrected glorified flesh and bone body as taught in Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." He asked the Father to restore to Him the glory He had with the Father before the world was? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5). So Jesus has a glorified flesh and bone body. He is the first of the first fruits is he not? "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Cor. 15:20). "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Cor. 15:20-23).

Jesus still has the the scars on His resurrected glorified flesh and bone body and will have them forever to show that which he has done for mankind; "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends" (Zechariah 13:6).

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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Metacrock » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:52 pm

the bible was written in semitic languages several thousand years ago. you have to approach it with an understanding of what kind of text you are dealing with. Those statements that make it seem God has a body are metaphor. we don't need a bible verse to prove that. It's absurd to think God is this big guy in the sky. that's absurd.
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by unred typo » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:27 am

Meta:
“the bible was written in semitic languages several thousand years ago. you have to approach it with an understanding of what kind of text you are dealing with. Those statements that make it seem God has a body are metaphor. we don't need a bible verse to prove that. It's absurd to think God is this big guy in the sky. that's absurd.”

I think you‘re dismissing this out of hand. I have always been taught that God was this nebulous essence that couldn’t be contained but permeated everything like oxygen or something only a living entity. Then, I read the post Haz wrote and I realized that there is no logical reason that God should not have a body and that just because there are metaphors that describe God, doesn’t preclude the idea that those could be based on actual features. I don’t know why, when Genesis says God created man in his image and in his likeness, that doesn’t include his image and likeness as a being with a body like ours only spiritual. Being spiritual doesn’t necessitate being bodiless, does it? If I say that I created an image of myself, in my likeness, out of clay… what does that say to you?

As for a big guy in the sky, I’m not going to argue that size matters. At the same time, I don’t see why he can’t be big enough to stretch out the heavens from one end of the cosmos to the other, or small enough to fit inside a particle of matter, if he wants to be. He isn’t JUST a big guy in the sky, he’s God.

While arguing with atheists you might have the tendency to try to remove God far above any ordinary human features that make him sound invented in our image, but if we were indeed created in his image, don’t you think we can look at ourselves and at least imagine a father figure who loves us as his children, above all the creatures that were not created in his likeness? * hands up smilie*
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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Hazard » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:46 pm

Metacrock wrote:the bible was written in semitic languages several thousand years ago. you have to approach it with an understanding of what kind of text you are dealing with. Those statements that make it seem God has a body are metaphor. we don't need a bible verse to prove that. It's absurd to think God is this big guy in the sky. that's absurd.
Hi Mate.
That the Bible may have been written in semetic languages several thousand years ago has nothing to do with the fact that the Bible was written by God inspired men to be understood by the simple, "babes." I believe the Bible is a simple book to understand because it was given by God to be understood by the simple. Jesus thanked God that the truths of the Bible were hidden from the worldly wise who refused to believe, and stated that God has "revealed them unto babes" (Matt. 11:25-27). Jesus gives the reason the truths are hidden from anyone because they refuse to humble themselves to believe and conform to the Bible (Matt. 13:10-17). He speakes of the devil taking the Word from the hearts of men lest it should bring forth fruit (Matt. 13:19-23). No man can get the vastness of the Bible at once. The most simple beginners can understand the Bible one line at a time, for this is the way it was given, and it is the best way to understand it (Isa. 28:9-13).
God will not judge people based on a book written in such a way as to confuse people, or which needs interpretation. Anyone who understands the most simple human language can undserstand what it says. Every time any group of persons reads a particular part of the Bible they all read the same thing. If they should read it again, it would still be the same. If they were asked what the passage says they could all do it without exception. If they can tell what it says, and if they can read what it says, then they can all believe what it says; and that is all that is necessary to understand the Bible.
A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted by Bible experts every time He said something, would be no God at all. Almost any human being can express themselves clearly enough to be understood. Furthermore, a God who could make Himself clear and chose to do otherwise in such a way as to confuse and hide from man those things He seeks to reveal to man, would not be worth hearing. A God that gave man a plain simple revelation of Himself, and deliberately sought to hide these things from man, and then was to judge him for not being able to understand because of a lack of interpreters, would be a tyrant and not a God of love and justice.

I do not think Scriptures stating in detail the many parts of God's body as being methapors? Even the resurrected bodies of flesh and bone saints are called Spiritual (1 Cor. 15:44), so spiritual bodies are of materialized substance, something we know nothing about, as far as experience is concerned at the present time. Furthermore, the soul and spirit, the inner man is just as spiritual as God and His angels are. The inner man out of the body, which is the outer man, is a spiritual body itself and has been seen with bodily parts to correspond with the outer man. The inner man or spiritual part of one person, after leaving the physical body, has been seen by another such spiritual part, as being fully conscious, capable of wearing cloths, and being carried by other spirit beings into material places of either rest and comefort, or torment (Luke 16:19-31; Eph. 4:8; Heb. 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).

The Scriptural fact that God personally dwells in Heaven and not everywhere is confirmed by Jesus Himself who addressed His Father and refered to Him as BEING IN HEAVEN. Eighteen times whilst jesus was on the Earth. Jesus said, "FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN" ( Matt. 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 9; 7L1, 21, etc.). We cannot conclude that Jesus did not know where the Father was, and that Jesus did not know what He was talking about? Not one time in the entire Bible does one Scripture refer to God being bodily everywhere. God is omni-present but not omni-body, that is, His presence can be felt by moral agents who are everywhere, but His body cannot be seen by them everyplace at the same time. God, in His body goes from place to place like anybody else as many Scriptures throughout the Bible teach.

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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Theognosis » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:06 am

It's absurd to think God is this big guy in the sky. that's absurd.
Analyzing your statement in context, my guess is that you are referring to God the Father, and in this respect, I totally agree. We're both Panentheists, right?

At any rate, I suggest that since there are three persons in The Holy Trinity, you should be more specific next time.
Metacrock wrote:the bible was written in semitic languages several thousand years ago. you have to approach it with an understanding of what kind of text you are dealing with. Those statements that make it seem God has a body are metaphor.
This is where I disagree with you. We Orthodox interpret all Old Testament theopanies as LITERAL appearances of God the Son.

http://www.incommunion.org/articles/old ... he-creator
On the interpretation accepted by the Orthodox Church, the personal encounter is to be understood in more specific terms. Moses does not simply meet God, but he meets Christ. All the theophanies in the Old Testament are manifestations, not of God the Father — Whom “no one has ever seen” (John 1:18) — but of the pre-incarnate Christ, God the eternal Logos. Visitors to St. Mark’s in Venice will recall that in the mosaics depicting the story of Genesis 1, the face of God the Creator bears unmistakably the lineaments of Christ. In the same way, when Isaiah sees God enthroned in the temple, “high and lifted up” (Isaiah 6:1), and when Ezekiel sees in the midst of the wheels and of the four living creatures “something that seemed like a human form” (Ezekiel 1:26), it is Christ the Logos Whom they both behold.

When the OT is understood in this light, it's easy for a Panentheist to say that God, i.e. God the Son, possesses the features of a human being who dwells WITHIN creation.

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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Theognosis » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:22 am

unred typo wrote:I don’t know why, when Genesis says God created man in his image and in his likeness, that doesn’t include his image and likeness as a being with a body like ours only spiritual.
We were created after the image of God the Son, who is the image of the INVISIBLE Father.
As for a big guy in the sky, I’m not going to argue that size matters. At the same time, I don’t see why he can’t be big enough to stretch out the heavens from one end of the cosmos to the other, or small enough to fit inside a particle of matter, if he wants to be. He isn’t JUST a big guy in the sky, he’s God.
I don't think Meta was referring to the physical dimensions of creation. He was concerned about God's transcendence. As an Orthodox, I don't have problems with it because we believe that God is BOTH transcendent and immanent.

http://www.incommunion.org/articles/old ... he-creator

Upholding this “panentheistic” standpoint, the great Byzantine theologian St. Gregory Palamas (1296-1359) safeguarded the otherness-yet-nearness of the Eternal by making a distinction-in-unity between God’s essence and His energies. In His essence, God is infinitely transcendent, radically unknowable, utterly beyond all created being, beyond all understanding and all participation from the human side. But, in His energies, God is inexhaustibly immanent, the core of everything, the heart of its heart, closer to the heart of each thing than is that thing’s very own heart. These divine energies, according to the Palamite teaching, are not an intermediary between God and the world, not a created gift that He bestows upon us, but they are God Himself in action; and each uncreated energy is God in His indivisible totality, not a part of Him but the whole.

By virtue of this essence-energies distinction, Palamas is able to affirm without self-contradiction:

Those who are counted worthy enjoy union with God the cause of all … He remains wholly within Himself and yet dwells wholly within us, making us share not in His nature but in His glory and radiance.

In this way, God is revealed and hidden — revealed in His energies, hidden in His essence:

Somehow He manifests Himself in His totality, and yet he does not manifest Himself; we apprehend Him with our intellect, and yet we do not apprehend Him; we participate in Him, and yet He remains beyond all participation.

Such is the antinomic stance of the true panentheist:

God both is and is not; He is everywhere and nowhere; He has many names and He cannot be named; He is ever-moving and He is immovable; and, in short, He is everything and nothing.

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Re: Omnipotence of God

Post by Hazard » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:19 pm

Gregory Palamas could not have read the many hundreds of Scriptures I have found which clearly describe God, who He is, what He does, and what I is doing regarding His plan for mankind.
"God both is and is not; He is everywhere and nowhere; He has many names and He cannot be named; He is ever-moving and He is immovable; and, in short, He is everything and nothing"
.

This is reading more from Scripture than is written. I have yet to find Scriptures which teach that God is nowhere, immovable, and nothing? In fact, I cannot even find the word immovable in Scripture?

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