Christians and Sabbath

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby met on Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:28 pm

.Okay. So are you saying that adultery is permitted but not moral? More generally, are you saying what is right and wrong under God's laws are different to what is morally right and wrong?


As an aside, note that the difference between morality and legality would involve deciding what kind of actions require an official censure because they fall below some minimal social standard of acceptable behavior? I.e. laws require law-keepers, some kind of "police" force to enforce compliance, or else they are ineffectual and pointless.

But, well, according to Christ's comments in the sermon on the mount, it seems like Gods laws should be understood to pervade far beyond either legality or morality and touch on the internal person? Which is to say, they even include the potential for divine judgement on the grounds of unacted desire that concepts like "legal" or most forms of "moral" leave untouched?

What do you make of these two passages from Matt22 which we've discussed before?
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby The Pixie on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:10 pm

met wrote:Why wouldn't God's "laws" change? If God is relational in some way with humans, then the nature of those relations will change, and will depend not just on God's character but on the various and always-changing character of the other "beings" involved. And more than that, an unchanging essence would have to be an impersonal force and not a personal being, pretty much by definition, so recall he discussion we had on Meta's board about the PoE, where I said that I don't believe an unchanging thing could ever be thought of as "personal" since change is an intrinsic part of "aliveness".

That is certainly an unorthodox view. So are you saying adultery is no longer against God's law?

Would it be fair to say that God's law changes between areas too? What is against his law in one culture is permitted in another culture a few hundred miles away? This fits with God giving laws to the Jews specifically, but the vast majority of Christians I am sure would disagree.

This raises a big question about how we know what God's law is today in my city? The Bible is two thousand years out of date, and written for another culture entirely. Is sexual promiscuity now okay, for example?
Note that Torah wasn't given right at the beginning to Adam or even to Abraham? Why not, then, if it is supposed to be so permanent and unchanging?

Fair point, but the laws were given in the form of a covenent, i.e., both parties keep their side of the deal. Also, it is worth noting that as each new covenent is made, it introduces new laws without rescinding any of the old. At least until Paul takes a hatchet to it.
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby met on Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:55 pm

How does Paul's spin on Christ's career "take a hatchet" to his Messianic fulfillment of the prophets? The whole thing fits with this Jeremiah passage (quoted in Hebrews) pretty good, I think?

.The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them"
declares the Lord.
"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”


...the removal of hierarchy and external enforcements (ie Torah understood as a legal system) in favor of a stronger relational approach- an intensification and internalization of the essence of "law", not its repudiation - except, of course, with respect to the removal of some culturally-bound ritualistic markers (like the ritual sacrifices,the keeping of Shabboath as a particularly holy day, &etc.)
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby SayaOtonashi on Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:04 am

So Pixie does it matter what day we worship God? I have to work on Saturday have I sin against God? Remember the penalty for not following the law was death. Do you follow all 613 laws in the Torah?
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby The Pixie on Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:09 am

met wrote:How does Paul's spin on Christ's career "take a hatchet" to his Messianic fulfillment of the prophets?

Jesus said he had not come to change the laws one jot. Paul said you no longer need to keep the laws.
The whole thing fits with this Jeremiah passage (quoted in Hebrews) pretty good, I think?

I see nothing there that indicates the laws will not have to be observed, instead I see God saying the Jews will automatically or instinctively know what those laws are.

So do you think that day has come? Do you think the people of Israel and the people of Judah have God's law written in their hearts and minds?
...the removal of hierarchy and external enforcements (ie Torah understood as a legal system) in favor of a stronger relational approach- an intensification and internalization of the essence of "law", not its repudiation - except, of course, with respect to the removal of some culturally-bound ritualistic markers (like the ritual sacrifices,the keeping of Shabboath as a particularly holy day, &etc.)

That is an interesting spin you put on it.

My reading is that when that day comes to pass, rather than abandoning the Sabbath, the people of Israel and the people of Judah will just know not to work on that day without anyone having to tell them.

Perhaps it comes down to whether the laws of the Torah are arbitrary - God made them up just to test or hinder the Jews - or whether they have reason behind them. If they are arbitrary, then it is reasonable to suppose God does not really care if they are kept or not, he just wanted the Jews to jump though hoops for him, but that no longer applies. However, if there is reason behind them, for example, if eating shellfish really is an abomination unto God, then those laws should still apply today.

Oh, and you still have not said if a person is required to observe one of God's laws or if it is just a recommendation.
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby The Pixie on Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:11 am

SayaOtonashi wrote:So Pixie does it matter what day we worship God? I have to work on Saturday have I sin against God? Remember the penalty for not following the law was death. Do you follow all 613 laws in the Torah?

There is no God, so no, it does not matter a bit.

I follow the laws that are morally sound (do not murder, do not steal, etc.), and ignore the rest (eat shellfish, etc.)
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby met on Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:40 am

...the removal of hierarchy and external enforcements (ie Torah understood as a legal system) in favor of a stronger relational approach- an intensification and internalization of the essence of "law", not its repudiation - except, of course, with respect to the removal of some culturally-bound ritualistic markers (like the ritual sacrifices,the keeping of Shabboath as a particularly holy day, &etc.)


That is an interesting spin you put on it.


I think it's not too far from a "stock Xian" kind of answer tho? Pretty common lines of reasoning, even if (perhaps) some of my own personal quirks are worked in....

But maybe Jim or Meta will comment here, if they following along on this thread....?
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby The Pixie on Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:41 am

met wrote:I think it's not too far from a "stock Xian" kind of answer tho? Pretty common lines of reasoning, even if (perhaps) some of my own personal quirks are worked in....

Yes, but I am arguing against the stock Christian position. My point is that Christianity has been ignoring Biblical laws since Paul.
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby met on Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:23 am

Well, not all of Christianity.....

I think it's a question of how "spiritualized" Torah could become? By the time of Christ, Judeah had been influenced by Hellenic cultures and empires for several hundred years, and not under its own governance, so their relation with "the Law" had changed, and many Jewish-descended people had become quite hellenized.

I pointed out for you where Jesus seems to breach some major rules himself - insisting that people must "hate their parents" to enter the Kingdom, eg - so his interpretation of "fulfilling the Law" might not have been so straightforward, nor so culturally conservative either, as your point seems to infer.....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Postby The Pixie on Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:22 am

met wrote:I think it's a question of how "spiritualized" Torah could become? By the time of Christ, Judeah had been influenced by Hellenic cultures and empires for several hundred years, and not under its own governance, so their relation with "the Law" had changed, and many Jewish-descended people had become quite hellenized.

I appreciate that, but would that be a reason to abandon God's laws? Certainly early Christians did not think so, and many were martyred for not worshiping the pagan gods, which was a legal requirement of the time. Just because secular law allows the eating of pork, that does not mean Jews had to then or now.

Of course, the Hellenised Jews may well have become more lax in their observance, but I do not think that that is quite the same thing.
I pointed out for you where Jesus seems to breach some major rules himself - insisting that people must "hate their parents" to enter the Kingdom, eg - so his interpretation of "fulfilling the Law" might not have been so straightforward, nor so culturally conservative either, as your point seems to infer.....

~Jesus objected to an overly strict observation of the law for the sake of observing the law. However, I see nothing to suggest that he rejected the law. You quoted from Jeremiah (I think) about how the law would be written on the hearts of the people, and I suspect this is what Jesus was about. People would abstain from eating pork and shellfish not because it is against the law, but because they understand that eating pork and shellfish is just wrong.
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