Does god have a right to kill people?

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Michael Hill
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Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Michael Hill » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:54 am

Does god have a right to kill people, or even to judge them?

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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Metacrock » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:22 pm

Michael Hill wrote:Does god have a right to kill people, or even to judge them?
First I don't agree that God does kill people. Bracket that, yes he has the right. God more than anyone because he's the standard and source of the good, He is the good itself. He's the only truly objective judge.

counter question: does the state have the right to kill people?
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sgttomas
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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by sgttomas » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:01 pm

Michael Hill wrote:Does god...
Who?

Peace,
-sgttomas
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:13 am

sgttomas wrote:
Michael Hill wrote:Does god...
Who?

Peace,
-sgttomas
excellent point. :mrgreen:
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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Michael Hill » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:51 am

God is hardly an impartial judge. He KNOWS he is right and will brook no other opinion. Absolute power does not mean great intellect, or even mediocre intellect. I cannot see any signs in the bible of god being smarter than the people of the day when the stories were written.

Numerous times in the bible his emotions take him over and he commits mass murder. A few times he repents doing so. God is not beyond good and bad as some claim, but merely beyond punishment.

As to god being the source of good, the bible says you are wrong, though in Isaiah (45:7), god admits to being the source of evil. It's god telling you what to do, sometimes in the vaguest terms and threatening you with dire punishments if you do not obey his idea of the law. Kill disobedient children? Kill people who work on the sabbath? He is not a strict parent but a Stalinist tyrant.

People knew what was good and bad hundreds of thousands if not millions of years before any religion of today was invented. Animals have been shown to know the difference between good and bad, as anyone who has owned a cat or dog knows. God should lead by example and he does not. He does as he wishes.

As I said, I have been reading Barker and he using bible verses and reasoning, explains why the bible is not a moral book, overturning the empty dogma that it is.

A man and a woman have a baby. It grows up and turns out bad. Do either of them have the right to kill that bad person because they "made him"?

There are bad people who deserve killing because of what they have done and maybe what they would do if they had a chance. Is sending someone to jail for 30 or 40 years or more a kind punishment? Some people in such a position have demanded to be executed.

A question for you. If Hitler had been found alive by the Allies and brought to trial, should he be executed or not?

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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by sgttomas » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:49 pm

Michael Hill wrote:God is
Who is God?

Is "God" a term that has meaning to you independent of other people's words, such that you can use it in a sentence as a symbol of a subject capable of being discussed? If not, what is the question that you are really asking?

My entire answer to everything after what you wrote is....so what? Emotional appeals are interesting, when used effectively they can even be persuasive, but here they aren't a useful rhetorical technique.

Let me show you what I mean. I can't for the moment assume that you actually know what I mean when I say "God", so as far as you should be concerned at the moment it is an empty term waiting to be defined by the relation to the other words in the sentences I'm about to use.

"God" causes life and brings about death. Nothing has existence apart from God. Therefore "God" does not have, nor is "God" capable of having, a right to kill.

God is not subject to this sort of criteria, for example: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/legal-rights/#3
Neither is this applicable: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke ... al/#LawNat

"God" is the noncontingent subject to which anything has existence, so too is the condition of life.

A question of morality and right and wrong isn't coherent at that level of knowledge, since rights are contingent upon something and God is by definition noncontingent.

In my language your sentence isn't a sentence that has a meaning. It's a collection of words.

That's how "God" works in my language. But maybe you and I aren't using the letters g-o-d to refer to the same thing.

So I can't expect a dialogue to occur unless you can independently provide your own definition for "god" such that we might come to terms.

This is the expectation for any exchange of words for the purpose of understanding.

Peace,
-sgttomas
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Metacrock » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:37 pm

Michael Hill wrote:God is hardly an impartial judge. He KNOWS he is right and will brook no other opinion. Absolute power does not mean great intellect, or even mediocre intellect. I cannot see any signs in the bible of god being smarter than the people of the day when the stories were written.
Not only knows he's right but really does know that truthfully and objectively and cant be dishonest not even with himself, he's the only perfect judge.
Numerous times in the bible his emotions take him over and he commits mass murder. A few times he repents doing so. God is not beyond good and bad as some claim, but merely beyond punishment.

so you actually believe the Bible?

As to god being the source of good, the bible says you are wrong, though in Isaiah (45:7), god admits to being the source of evil. It's god telling you what to do, sometimes in the vaguest terms and threatening you with dire punishments if you do not obey his idea of the law. Kill disobedient children? Kill people who work on the sabbath? He is not a strict parent but a Stalinist tyrant.
Nope the word means calamity not moral evil. Again how is it you believe that? I thought you don't believe the Bible?
People knew what was good and bad hundreds of thousands if not millions of years before any religion of today was invented. Animals have been shown to know the difference between good and bad, as anyone who has owned a cat or dog knows. God should lead by example and he does not. He does as he wishes.
You are assuming people invented religion at a point in time that's fallacious. Humans always had religion because Neanderthals had it. It's horse shit to thin animals can know right from wrong. show me the source on that, that's absurd you know it,

As I said, I have been reading Barker and he using bible verses and reasoning, explains why the bible is not a moral book, overturning the empty dogma that it is.
Barker only know how to look at the 'bible and a fundie he really doesn't know any thing about it. his reasoning is third rate. I did not just start doing this yesterday. I have been on message boards arguing with atheists since 1998. I've answered bushel basket full of Barker stuff. he's not impressive and he doesn't know anything.

A man and a woman have a baby. It grows up and turns out bad. Do either of them have the right to kill that bad person because they "made him"?
Does the state have the right to kill a murderer. God is not just a [aren't e's the creator. he's the asks of existence and he knows all that is knowable.

There are bad people who deserve killing because of what they have done and maybe what they would do if they had a chance. Is sending someone to jail for 30 or 40 years or more a kind punishment? Some people in such a position have demanded to be executed.
if the state has the right to kill then Go0 does.
A question for you. If Hitler had been found alive by the Allies and brought to trial, should he be executed or not?
of course
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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Michael Hill » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:19 pm

sgttomas. You make a lot of unscientific statements about god but how about first proving he exists before deciding what he does?

I think your mother who carried you for nine months might be upset with you claiming god made you. It would have been a lot easier for her if this god had left you under a gooseberry bush, fully formed.

As far as I know, there is no proof god has done anything or contacted anyone so even if such an impossible being were to exist, we would not know it.

The god I am using is the one in the books of mythology. The Jewish god named after YHW in Egypt first appeared in their myths about 1400 BC from the Shasu. He was just one of many gods they believed in like god's wife, Asherah, Baal, and others. The others were banished early fifth century, leaving just YHWH. Christians then claimed him for their own, then muslims claimed him for their own.

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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Michael Hill » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:54 pm

God knows he's right?

Garden of Eden.
Genesis 6:6 God repented making Man.
Genesis 9 No more worldwide floods because he was sorry he got it wrong.
Exodus 32:14 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
And some more:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/repent.html

God caught telling porkies. Genesis 2:17. The word used for day here is for warm hours so a 24 hour day. Adam did not die that day but lived another 900 years.

If I am debating the bible, I have to pretend it is true some times to show why your beliefs are wrong.

The word used in Isaiah 45:7 is "ra" which means, according to Strongs: adversity (7), calamity (4), disaster (2), evil (94), harm (2), harmful (1), hurt (1), ruin (3), surely (1), trouble (2), unpleasant (1), wickedly (1), wickedness (1). 94 times in the bible, that word is used to mean evil, and calamity, a mere 4.

You can call it whatever you want in your denial, but animals do know right from wrong:

http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

You have the christian view that only very flawed and often thick Man has intelligence and morals and animals are just lumps of meat, to do as we command. I pointed this article out the other day to someone with the same view. A white mouse sees it's friend being eaten by a snake and though a snake is it's worse nightmare, it vainly tries to save it's friend:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... fails.html

As I said to this other guy, you would not do that for another human against some death dealing monster, which makes this mouse more righteous than you are.

You are just denying Barker, not knowing what he wrote. That is a standard creationist tactic. Read his book. It and others can be downloaded for free from here:

http://atheistmovies.blogspot.com/

If god knows all then he knows his own future so is nothing more than a puppet going through the motions, unable to change anything because if he can, he does not know the future. But as I have shown, god repented as in he got it wrong, so god makes mistakes and does not know the future. If he did and let Adam and Eve do what they did, and people become evil so he could drown them all, etc, he would really be an evil monster then.

Intelligent Design is based on an ultra smart god who knows everything, but when you read the bible, god comes across as a bit dim, because he only has the knowledge of the people who made him up. God could not put a deckchair up let alone create a Universe or make DNA. Ultimate power does not mean great intelligence or even mediocre intelligence.

The state has clear rules. God's rules are vague, nonsensical, like Humpty Dumpty they mean what he says they mean, and so on. God is responsible to no one so can murder as he wishes, as he does in the bible. God murdering 70,000 men because he got annoyed at Daniel who was doing as he was told:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... ouple.html

And then we have the Egypt saga where poor old Pharaoh wants to get rid of the Israelites but god won't let him and forces him to keep them (hardening his heart) so god can continue punishing him UNJUSTLY, even to the murder of the first born of Egypt.

But Hitler was a good christian and the German people a christian nation:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

.

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Re: Does god have a right to kill people?

Post by Metacrock » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:36 pm

Michael Hill wrote:sgttomas. You make a lot of unscientific statements about god but how about first proving he exists before deciding what he does?

I think your mother who carried you for nine months might be upset with you claiming god made you. It would have been a lot easier for her if this god had left you under a gooseberry bush, fully formed.
I doubt it, his mother's the wife of a minister.
As far as I know, there is no proof god has done anything or contacted anyone so even if such an impossible being were to exist, we would not know it.

that's because you re not seeking truth. You are seeking rebellion and social approval.
The god I am using is the one in the books of mythology. The Jewish god named after YHW in Egypt first appeared in their myths about 1400 BC from the Shasu. He was just one of many gods they believed in like god's wife, Asherah, Baal, and others. The others were banished early fifth century, leaving just YHWH. Christians then claimed him for their own, then muslims claimed him for their own.
Sarge is a Muslim. I don't know of any Jewish mythology books
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