Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Metacrock » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:02 am

Mister Furious wrote:See Meta now I'm scared again, 'cause these anonymous young people in Colombia claimed to have had a collective vision of both heaven and hell:

Heaven: http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/ ... Heaven.htm
Hell: http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/ ... s_Hell.htm

Although I wonder why God revealed such vital information to some nondescript "youths" at an unspecified time in a third world country. You'd think these kids would be more front and center about this information, since most people with big-and-bold paranormal claims tend to do that. Isn't that what Jesus's followers would have done?

Doesn't this scare you now, Meta? It scares me. I just feel like we shouldn't take the chance and should assume its all true. Not worth the risk. Right?
no. they didn't have my vision. I had my vision. I have to go with what I know. I know God is love. It's all grounded in Christ. If you have the assurance of Jesus as savior then you don't have to worry about hell. Doubting that is just not being faithful.
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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Mister Furious » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:37 pm

Ok Meta, its like this: lets say I'm a member of another religion. Lets say that this religion (or my particular denomination of it) says if I leave it, I'll go to hell. I'm a great person and live life in a very ethnical manner, but I've heard Christians tell me the gospel before, and I didn't believe it. I believed my own reilgion instead, even though I'd repeatedly and explicity heard about Christianity.

Why on earth could I NOT just repent on Judgement day and believe in Jesus then? I never understood that. Presumably in the afterlife you'd have overwhelming evidence that Christianity is true. So why won't God be fair and let people repent then? Whats so wrong with a second chance?

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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Metacrock » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:01 pm

Mister Furious wrote:Ok Meta, its like this: lets say I'm a member of another religion. Lets say that this religion (or my particular denomination of it) says if I leave it, I'll go to hell. I'm a great person and live life in a very ethnical manner, but I've heard Christians tell me the gospel before, and I didn't believe it. I believed my own reilgion instead, even though I'd repeatedly and explicity heard about Christianity.

Why on earth could I NOT just repent on Judgement day and believe in Jesus then? I never understood that. Presumably in the afterlife you'd have overwhelming evidence that Christianity is true. So why won't God be fair and let people repent then? Whats so wrong with a second chance?

back to square one. Haven't I already answered this? If not maybe I feel as though I have because I've said it so much. Paul says anyone who is seeking the good is follow Christ defacto. (Romans 2:6-14).

He says in Acts (17:21-29) that God put people where they live all over the world so they can find him.

the same reality of God is behind all religions. The appear different becasue they are all filtered through culture.
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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by DT1138 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:20 pm

You can be a Christian and fear Hell too- we don't deserve heaven merely for being born into a Christian family or any other reasons why one person might be atheist and another might be a Christian. God is under no obligation to reward a Christian having a dead faith with eternal life.

I go to an Old Catholic Church at the moment (not Roman Catholic, Old Catholics are similar to Episcopalians), just because I am that type of Christian and it is nearby, and its fairly liberal but they do not deny the existence of Hell. It is not a major part of the preaching, but it is not denied (they believe in "purgatory" too).

Inclusivism is my own belief too, and it would be the belief of many in my type of Christianity. How exactly non-Christians will get to heaven is not fully decided, but it probably has to do with following ones own conscience as best they are able. It's important to know we do not go to heaven for "being good". Our own nature is inclined to sin, not to good, so we need to have God's grace to merit heaven, and we recieve that grace through faith and through the mysteries of the Church, principally Baptism, the Holy Communion, and the words of absolution of the priest. In these mysteries, we encoutner Christ through the actions of the Church acting in his name.

In the end, a person has to really be a Christian because they believe it is true. Hedging your bets is a place to start, though, as Blaise Pascal pointed out, but it's not really a good place to end.

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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Metacrock » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:22 am

DT1138 wrote:You can be a Christian and fear Hell too- we don't deserve heaven merely for being born into a Christian family or any other reasons why one person might be atheist and another might be a Christian. God is under no obligation to reward a Christian having a dead faith with eternal life.

I go to an Old Catholic Church at the moment (not Roman Catholic, Old Catholics are similar to Episcopalians), just because I am that type of Christian and it is nearby, and its fairly liberal but they do not deny the existence of Hell. It is not a major part of the preaching, but it is not denied (they believe in "purgatory" too).

Inclusivism is my own belief too, and it would be the belief of many in my type of Christianity. How exactly non-Christians will get to heaven is not fully decided, but it probably has to do with following ones own conscience as best they are able. It's important to know we do not go to heaven for "being good". Our own nature is inclined to sin, not to good, so we need to have God's grace to merit heaven, and we recieve that grace through faith and through the mysteries of the Church, principally Baptism, the Holy Communion, and the words of absolution of the priest. In these mysteries, we encoutner Christ through the actions of the Church acting in his name.

In the end, a person has to really be a Christian because they believe it is true. Hedging your bets is a place to start, though, as Blaise Pascal pointed out, but it's not really a good place to end.
say welcome to the boards DT. Glad you could make it.


Bible says "perfect love casts out fear." Marginal Christians fear hell, those who really get deeply into experience of God's love don't. I agree that the proper motivation is not avoiding tell but being convinced that Good is real. If you experience God's presence you know that God is love and you love God. that's the real motive.
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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by DT1138 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:42 pm

To add more... if you fear hell, this is actually proof that God loves you. Just like a parent warning a child about looking both ways before crossing the street, God warns us about the dangers to our soul because they are real. So, fearing hell is not all that bad. It's just a sign you are waking up to the reality of life, that it has to end some day and we reach the finitude of our existence.

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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:25 am

DT1138 wrote:To add more... if you fear hell, this is actually proof that God loves you. Just like a parent warning a child about looking both ways before crossing the street, God warns us about the dangers to our soul because they are real. So, fearing hell is not all that bad. It's just a sign you are waking up to the reality of life, that it has to end some day and we reach the finitude of our existence.
depends upon the extent of the fear. There's a guy posting here recently who is really prevented from trusting God because of his fear that God s mean. I think if he experienced the reality of God he would not have that fear.
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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by DT1138 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:56 pm

Metacrock wrote:
DT1138 wrote: depends upon the extent of the fear. There's a guy posting here recently who is really prevented from trusting God because of his fear that God s mean. I think if he experienced the reality of God he would not have that fear.
I think that's a case of where the Lutheran concept of "Promise" must come into play (I'm not a Lutheran but I do agree that often this is a good idea to use this in preaching). Some religions groups focus only on legalism and guilt (especially holiness traditions, non-denoms and some roman catholics), never the forgiveness or mercy, because they are afraid of being soft. But that's not really what Jesus was about: he might say "Go and sin no more" but he also said "Neither do I condemn you".

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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Metacrock » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:32 am

DT1138 wrote:
Metacrock wrote:
DT1138 wrote: depends upon the extent of the fear. There's a guy posting here recently who is really prevented from trusting God because of his fear that God s mean. I think if he experienced the reality of God he would not have that fear.
I think that's a case of where the Lutheran concept of "Promise" must come into play (I'm not a Lutheran but I do agree that often this is a good idea to use this in preaching). Some religions groups focus only on legalism and guilt (especially holiness traditions, non-denoms and some roman catholics), never the forgiveness or mercy, because they are afraid of being soft. But that's not really what Jesus was about: he might say "Go and sin no more" but he also said "Neither do I condemn you".
yes I agree with you. I think those who think they have to be hard becuase they fear being soft dont' really know God very well. It just occurs to me that they haven't been affected by the things I experienced that led me to Jesus.
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Re: Is inclusivism just wishful thinking?

Post by Superfund » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:02 am

Heavan and hell are between your ears.
From the "revelation of hell" link; "Yes Lupe, he knew about Me. He accepted Me as his personal Savior, but he did not serve Me"?? and John lennon was there in hell as well lol. from the "Satanic music group" what utter nonsense. Even contradicts the bible "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Heads up "the son of man" service wasn't to save us from Greek mythology..

These fears are the result of conditioning, you must understand that. Other peoples ideas other peoples thoughts.

Try this http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/fr ... the-known/

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