God, perfection, good and evil

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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dumernmud
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God, perfection, good and evil

Post by dumernmud » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:52 pm

I'd like to get opinions.

In the famous passage between God and Abraham re Sodom & G. (Gen 18:20-33), Abraham, upon hearing of God's plan to destroy these cities, asked God, "....'Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?...Far be it from Thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from Thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?'" (vv. 23, 25)

I want to focus on the metaphysical/ethical aspect of this passage, leaving aside doctrinal disserations on the evils of S&G and so forth. I propose the following....
1) The attribute of perfection necessarily supervises all God's other characteristics or traits--love, mercy, justice, etc.
2) Abraham reacted as he did because #1 is true. I.e., it would violate God's perfection to destroy good in any instance.

Reasoned responses to the above, anyone?

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unred typo
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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by unred typo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:54 pm

This is probably over my head but why would you say that? Abraham is saying that justice demands that God should not destroy the good with the evil, not because of perfection but because his justice is tempered with mercy.
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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:07 pm

Actually, I think the main point was that God would ot deotyr a city with so many righeous. He agrees to spare it if there ar eonly 5 righeou in he city, apart form Lot and his family.

There arne't even that many, and I think the point is that there arne't any righeisu peopel in Sodom and Ghamorah, which is why when the AFA and such say "If God doens't do anythign abotu San Fransisco, he'd bettr apologise to Sodom and Ghamorah" is off. I thnk there are far, far mroe righeous peopel in San Fran, even prcentagewise, than in Sodom or Ghamorah at the time.

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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by unred typo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:22 pm

That's true. But Abraham didn't go below 5. Now we are forever left hanging wondering if God would have spared it for 4,3,2 or 1. Abraham's limit was 5 but God's? Hmmmn...
And without getting labeled as homophobic or gay, there were many other issues with the city than just sexual sins. If you read the book of Jasher, you will see they were morbidly cruel and disgustingly murderous to strangers and 'guests'. (One account tells of a practice of putting visitors on a bed and if they were too short, they were stretched to fit it, and if too long, they were hacked off.) :shock:

What do you make of the statement that God was going down to see if the city was as bad as the cry of it?
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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by Metacrock » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:33 am

unred typo wrote:That's true. But Abraham didn't go below 5. Now we are forever left hanging wondering if God would have spared it for 4,3,2 or 1. Abraham's limit was 5 but God's? Hmmmn...
And without getting labeled as homophobic or gay, there were many other issues with the city than just sexual sins. If you read the book of Jasher, you will see they were morbidly cruel and disgustingly murderous to strangers and 'guests'. (One account tells of a practice of putting visitors on a bed and if they were too short, they were stretched to fit it, and if too long, they were hacked off.) :shock:

What do you make of the statement that God was going down to see if the city was as bad as the cry of it?

God wanted to Ab to bargain on behalf of it. So that statement is a plot device. or perhaps the teller expects us to understand it as God's ploy to get Ab to bargain.
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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by unred typo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:13 am

Why can’t it be that God didn’t know how they would treat angelic beings, so he sent a couple? From Lot’s rather bizarre offer of his daughters, I would think,( and yes, I know thinking is risky, in some forums, prohibited) that he knew these were at the very least, messengers from God, if it was not apparent they were angels. Besides, I give him the benefit of the doubt (my personal doubt) and say that he really said, “I would rather give you my virgin daughters than these messengers from God.”
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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by Metacrock » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:05 am

unred typo wrote:Why can’t it be that God didn’t know how they would treat angelic beings, so he sent a couple? From Lot’s rather bizarre offer of his daughters, I would think,( and yes, I know thinking is risky, in some forums, prohibited) that he knew these were at the very least, messengers from God, if it was not apparent they were angels. Besides, I give him the benefit of the doubt (my personal doubt) and say that he really said, “I would rather give you my virgin daughters than these messengers from God.”

I would think that God doesn't have to actually go to a place physically to ascertain the skin on it's level of moral turpitude.
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dumernmud
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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by dumernmud » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:35 am

Hi ut,
This is probably over my head but why would you say that?
Say what?
Actually, I think the main point was that God would ot deotyr a city with so many righeous. He agrees to spare it if there ar eonly 5 righeou in he city, apart form Lot and his family.
Hi Z, by thinking about this in terms of the people involved, the point is missed. I want to set aside the folks involved in the story and concentrate on the ethical question underlying it.

The subject under consideration involves at base God's response toward good and evil. [This already can beg the question of definition of good and evil, but examination of the topic should be able to assume a consensus understanding and agreement of these terms...if we need refinement, this can be done later.]

I added my own wrinkle to the question of how/why God treats good and evil by suggesting that for Him to destroy good seems to me to necessarily violate His perfection. Would appreciate it if someone would respond to proposition #1 in the OP, would this be true or false and why?

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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by unred typo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:12 pm

I don’t really like my question, so I’m going with Z’s:
Hi Z, by thinking about this in terms of the people involved, the point is missed. I want to set aside the folks involved in the story and concentrate on the ethical question underlying it.

The subject under consideration involves at base God's response toward good and evil. [This already can beg the question of definition of good and evil, but examination of the topic should be able to assume a consensus understanding and agreement of these terms...if we need refinement, this can be done later.]

I added my own wrinkle to the question of how/why God treats good and evil by suggesting that for Him to destroy good seems to me to necessarily violate His perfection. Would appreciate it if someone would respond to proposition #1 in the OP, would this be true or false and why?
This is going to be quite churchy but anyhow, try this. God is good. I’m not sure if you can turn that around and say good is God, but I don’t think you can destroy good anyways. Anything you do in true goodness is done in God, who is in Christ. When you die, the spirit or the good God gave you and any good you have done, returns to God. You rest in the grave until the judgment and then, your good is weighed and if you are found to be of some measure in Christ, you are rewarded with eternal life, commensurate with the good you have done. I’m not sure if that might be eternal life as a baby or adult or eternal life as a slug or something else.

Anyways, you’d be happy as a clam. You’d be happier as a fully grown person though. So you would do well to put as much stock in your heavenly treasure as possible. Does that sound too off the wall? I have scriptural backing, mol. This doesn’t violate the ‘saved by grace’ aspect of our salvation because without the gift of his son and the death of Christ, there would be nothing to equally balance and eliminate the sin of Adam, the Holy Spirit would not be able to remove our sin when we walk in the light as it says in 1 John 1:7
(But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.)*insert thumbsup smilie*
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

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Re: God, perfection, good and evil

Post by unred typo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:15 pm

Metacrock wrote:
unred typo wrote:Why can’t it be that God didn’t know how they would treat angelic beings, so he sent a couple? From Lot’s rather bizarre offer of his daughters, I would think,( and yes, I know thinking is risky, in some forums, prohibited) that he knew these were at the very least, messengers from God, if it was not apparent they were angels. Besides, I give him the benefit of the doubt (my personal doubt) and say that he really said, “I would rather give you my virgin daughters than these messengers from God.”

I would think that God doesn't have to actually go to a place physically to ascertain the skin on it's level of moral turpitude.
This is true but he would have to send angels to determine what they would do to angels if he sent them.
*insert whaddaya think smilie*
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

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