Concepts and history of hell.

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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mdsimpson92
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Concepts and history of hell.

Post by mdsimpson92 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:00 pm

I notice how Christianity's concept of hell seems to break down into three types: eternal damnation, annihilationism, and variations of universal reconciliation.

I am curious how the first ended up being so dominant today to the expense of the others. From what I have read it was not dominant in the early church.


If you want to discuss what the Bible really means about this I am willing. Personally I lean towards to universalist, but I guess I limit it to hope otherwise I am doing what the Calvinists do except in forcing people into God's Kingdom and denying free will.

I also found this article online on universalism, but I am not sure of its reliability and I sense a general bias so I might suggest taking it with a grain of salt.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:17 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:I notice how Christianity's concept of hell seems to break down into three types: eternal damnation, annihilationism, and variations of universal reconciliation.

I am curious how the first ended up being so dominant today to the expense of the others. From what I have read it was not dominant in the early church.


If you want to discuss what the Bible really means about this I am willing. Personally I lean towards to universalist, but I guess I limit it to hope otherwise I am doing what the Calvinists do except in forcing people into God's Kingdom and denying free will.

I also found this article online on universalism, but I am not sure of its reliability and I sense a general bias so I might suggest taking it with a grain of salt.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

I like he annihilation version. I have 4 pages on it on Doxa.

http://www.doxa.ws/Theology/hell.html
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by mdsimpson92 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 pm

So was the idea of hell as eternal damnation something picked up from pagan religions or just one among other opinions on the afterlife?
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by mdsimpson92 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:20 pm

By the way you want to bring up some of Matt Slick's material for review. I believe he actually might have a "criticism" for universalism and maybe annihilationism.

How did eternal damnation become the dominant view. It certainly wasn't the dominant view in the 4th century. So how did it take root so deeply?
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by mdsimpson92 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:34 pm

Matt Slick on Universalism

http://carm.org/universalism-is

On a side note, wasn't Luther an anihilationist?
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:16 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:So was the idea of hell as eternal damnation something picked up from pagan religions or just one among other opinions on the afterlife?
Yes it came from the Greek Tartaurs. It probably existed in Semitic near east religions too. no mention in the OT but certain myths such as that of Inanna seem to reflect the idea of a neater world. Job doesn't reflect an idea of hell but he does reflect the idea of being condemned by an eternal prosecution.
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:17 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:By the way you want to bring up some of Matt Slick's material for review. I believe he actually might have a "criticism" for universalism and maybe annihilationism.

How did eternal damnation become the dominant view. It certainly wasn't the dominant view in the 4th century. So how did it take root so deeply?
Slick is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Google Meatcrock vs. Matt Slick see the war I had with him on my blog and on carm.
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:18 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:Matt Slick on Universalism

http://carm.org/universalism-is

On a side note, wasn't Luther an anihilationist?
good question. I can't remember what I've read about that.
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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by DT1138 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:06 pm

Dante's Inferno is straight out of Greek myth. The Greeks and Romans had images of Tartarus with endless torments long before Christianity was a religion.

The Eastern Orthodox understanding of heaven and hell is not as literal places, more like states of being. There is no rigid consensus on the afterlife in Orthodoxy. However in general this is true: after you die your soul rests in either states of either blessedness or torment awaiting the restoration of all things. Prayers for the dead are a part of the spiritual life of Orthodoxy and seen as vital for the developement of a persons soul into eternity. Some believe that demons will try to get your soul after you die (the Toll House theory being an example) and there is a spiritual struggle between the angels and demons, others believe the soul wanders around as a ghost for a while before travelling through the air (the "astral planes" in more familiar terms) But these are considered at best as pious opinions, not doctrine or dogma.

Having said that, I believe a large reason heaven and hell were emphasized in the medieval world is due to the social control element, putting on my Marxist hat. I believe its wrong to read into Jesus statements a detailed eschatology or metaphysics of reward and punishment. I think rather he's using the familiar mesopotamian/hellenistic images of paradise and hades to teach about the Kingdom of God, as he called it.

Also, Hades in Orthodoxy is the world of the dead, the Sheol of the Old Testament. It's not a pleasant place but its not necessarily a place of divine vengence. Indeed, Iranaeus of Lyons suggests that God let Adam die so that Adam would not eternally be under the influence of Satan, in this way death is ultimately a merciful act rather than a punitive act. On Holy Saturday, Jesus Christ descends into Hades (the medieval Harrowing of Hell) to proclaim the Gospel there. So, the world of the dead is no longer something isolated from God as the Hebrews understood it.

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Re: Concepts and history of hell.

Post by Metacrock » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:20 pm

DT1138 wrote:Dante's Inferno is straight out of Greek myth. The Greeks and Romans had images of Tartarus with endless torments long before Christianity was a religion.
Yea I think I said something like that.
The Eastern Orthodox understanding of heaven and hell is not as literal places, more like states of being. There is no rigid consensus on the afterlife in Orthodoxy. However in general this is true: after you die your soul rests in either states of either blessedness or torment awaiting the restoration of all things. Prayers for the dead are a part of the spiritual life of Orthodoxy and seen as vital for the developement of a persons soul into eternity. Some believe that demons will try to get your soul after you die (the Toll House theory being an example) and there is a spiritual struggle between the angels and demons, others believe the soul wanders around as a ghost for a while before travelling through the air (the "astral planes" in more familiar terms) But these are considered at best as pious opinions, not doctrine or dogma.
I bet a lot of that goes back to Gnosticism and mystery cults.
Having said that, I believe a large reason heaven and hell were emphasized in the medieval world is due to the social control element, putting on my Marxist hat. I believe its wrong to read into Jesus statements a detailed eschatology or metaphysics of reward and punishment. I think rather he's using the familiar mesopotamian/hellenistic images of paradise and hades to teach about the Kingdom of God, as he called it.
I agree
Also, Hades in Orthodoxy is the world of the dead, the Sheol of the Old Testament. It's not a pleasant place but its not necessarily a place of divine vengence. Indeed, Iranaeus of Lyons suggests that God let Adam die so that Adam would not eternally be under the influence of Satan, in this way death is ultimately a merciful act rather than a punitive act. On Holy Saturday, Jesus Christ descends into Hades (the medieval Harrowing of Hell) to proclaim the Gospel there. So, the world of the dead is no longer something isolated from God as the Hebrews understood it.
Sheol is the grave. The reason there's not a bunch of heaven going in the OT because people at that time believed everyone went to "the pit." It was a sort of half life. You weren't really alive and not really dead either. It wasn't torment but it wasn't' fun.
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