Orthodox Bishop Hilarion and Universal Reconciliation

[Metacrock]

Again, does not belong here, put it in the relax section.

I zapped it. Maybe I should make you a mod. I have so few regulars I could make you all mods.

[mdsimpson92]

Anywho, back on topic

Not suprising, it comes with any organization that is large or has a long history. I am just glad to see that hell has less emphasis in the Orthodox Church. By the way, I know you don't believe in a literal hell, but what are your beliefs specifically?

The former Primate of their chruch, I forget what city he represents, their equivalent of the Pope (they don't have a Pope but they have a "big cheese") came to Perkins. They seemed to be having the same kind of squabble between liberals and conservatives that we have.

Not suprising, it comes with any organization that is large or has a long history. I am just glad to see that hell has less emphasis in the Orthodox Church. By the way, I know you don't believe in a literal hell, but what are your beliefs specifically?

[mdsimpson92]

Hello?

[met]

Hello?

.. well, the last time I looked, Meta was more or less an "inclusivist annihilationist" - sort of.

[mdsimpson92]

Hello?

.. well, the last time I looked, Meta was more or less an "inclusivist annihilationist" - sort of.

I know what annihilationist is in this case, but what do you mean by inclusive? Do you mean it is open to all religions (which I guess makes sense)?

[met]

Hello?

.. well, the last time I looked, Meta was more or less an "inclusivist annihilationist" - sort of.

I know what annihilationist is in this case, but what do you mean by inclusive? Do you mean it is open to all religions (which I guess makes sense)?

... meaning Meta doesn't believe u have to be (consciously and explcitly) xian to be 'saved' or gain eteranl life or whatever.... (believes kind of like there's such a thing as an 'anonymous xian' in the Karl Rahner sense) The last I heard, at least. (I don't really like speaking for peeps, cuz their beliefs change sometimes, but i've been talking to Meta for a long time, over eight years now, and have been reading his discussions/arguments for even longer than that - over ten years, now.

[DT1138]

The emphasis in Orthodoxy is away from Hell as punishment but you can still sometimes find it there. There's a line in the Akathist (Hymn to the Theotokos, Virgin Mary), about deliverince from punishment, and that's just one example among many.
It's true that there is a more therapeutic understanding of human condition in Orthodoxy but the idea that the "heaven reward hell punishment" meme is entirely absent in Orthodoxy is just not true. In practice it's more a question of degree than kind, the differences between eastern and western Christianity are not as extreme as one would first assume by listening to some Orthodox clerics.

On the other hand, the idea you are saved by virtue of agreeing to a bunch of propositions about God, or even merely being a baptized Christian or "born again", is completely alien to Orthodoxy Christianity (at least in theory). .

[mdsimpson92]

The emphasis in Orthodoxy is away from Hell as punishment but you can still sometimes find it there. There's a line in the Akathist (Hymn to the Theotokos, Virgin Mary), about deliverince from punishment, and that's just one example among many. It's true that there is a more therapeutic understanding of human condition in Orthodoxy but the idea that the "heaven reward hell punishment" meme is entirely absent in Orthodoxy is just not true. In practice it's more a question of degree than kind, the differences between eastern and western Christianity are not as extreme as one would first assume by listening to some Orthodox clerics. On the other hand, the idea you are saved by virtue of agreeing to a bunch of propositions about God, or even merely being a baptized Christian or "born again", is completely alien to Orthodoxy Christianity (at least in theory). .

I figured, but I did get the general impression that still was there to an extent. But isn't it true that the Orthodox church is more organized as a sort of confederation than the more (again as you say by degree) monolithic views of the Catholic church.

What was your overall impression on their idea of hell? I got kind of a mixed view from the forums and articles I read. Some declaring the very real possibility of universal reconciliation, and some saying not so much. I know they cannot outright declare that all "Will" be saved (possibly contradicts free will and I think Justinian declared that anathema), but I do keep running into those that say all "might" be saved.

[DT1138]

I figured, but I did get the general impression that still was there to an extent. But isn't it true that the Orthodox church is more organized as a sort of confederation than the more (again as you say by degree) monolithic views of the Catholic church.

What was your overall impression on their idea of hell? I got kind of a mixed view from the forums and articles I read. Some declaring the very real possibility of universal reconciliation, and some saying not so much. I know they cannot outright declare that all "Will" be saved (possibly contradicts free will and I think Justinian declared that anathema), but I do keep running into those that say all "might" be saved.

No, the Orthodox Church is not a confederation in their mind, it is one Church, the same Church of the apostles. There are autocephalus national churches in the one Church... the situation is closer to the Anglican Communion in some ways. However all the national churches share the same faith and dogmas. The mindset of the Orthodox Church is very similar to Roman Catholicism except they have no Pope, rather the consensus of bishops is believed to be infallible. The Orthodox have trouble articulating what "the Church" is in a manner that would satisfy a positivist (Catholics do not have this issue).

Yes, universal reconciliation is a possibility in Orthodoxy but Orthodoxy believes salvation is contigent on human free will. Salvation in Orthodoxy is similar to Buddhism or ascetic Hinduism, its mostly about renunciation and purification of the soul from the passions, to reach a state of apatheia (dispassion). Apatheia enables disinterested love and virtue (this is why Orthodoxy values sobriety more than sentimentality, in fact sentimentality is seen as a flaw). Ultimately short of becoming a saint (like St. Anthony of Egypt, who heard the Gospel as a young man in a church, sold everything and gave to the poor and went to live in the desert), your salvation is in doubt and you will need prayers from the Church and so on, and then, by God's mercy, you will be accounted among the righteous.

Orthodoxy takes Christ's command to be perfect seriously, even though we cannot perfectly live that out in this sinful existence, it makes us become aware of God's mercy, which leads to repentence, forgiveness, and acquiring the Holy Spirit. Salvation is this entire process, a continual deepening of repentence throughout ones life. In the Divine Liturgy, at the Eucharist the congregation prays a brief prayer that perfectly sums up the Orthodox attitude to salvation. It is not "wow, I'm saved"; it ends with the plea, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". There is no absolute assurance or certainty, which would only be cheap in the Orthodox mind and unspiritual, only the hope that the same Jesus who forgave sinners will forgive us.

[mdsimpson92]

Yes, universal reconciliation is a possibility in Orthodoxy but Orthodoxy believes salvation is contigent on human free will. Salvation in Orthodoxy is similar to Buddhism or ascetic Hinduism, its mostly about renunciation and purification of the soul from the passions, to reach a state of apatheia (dispassion). Apatheia enables disinterested love and virtue (this is why Orthodoxy values sobriety more than sentimentality, in fact sentimentality is seen as a flaw). Ultimately short of becoming a saint (like St. Anthony of Egypt, who heard the Gospel as a young man in a church, sold everything and gave to the poor and went to live in the desert), your salvation is in doubt and you will need prayers from the Church and so on, and then, by God's mercy, you will be accounted among the righteous.

The similarity to Buddhism actually makes sense because I remember reading in one of my textbooks that Mahayana Buddhism was heavily influenced by Nestorian Christianity (and probably vice versa). I wonder if the apatheia was something picked up from the stoics. Anyways thank you for the info.

No, the Orthodox Church is not a confederation in their mind, it is one Church, the same Church of the apostles. There are autocephalus national churches in the one Church... the situation is closer to the Anglican Communion in some ways. However all the national churches share the same faith and dogmas. The mindset of the Orthodox Church is very similar to Roman Catholicism except they have no Pope, rather the consensus of bishops is believed to be infallible. The Orthodox have trouble articulating what "the Church" is in a manner that would satisfy a positivist (Catholics do not have this issue).

Ok, I just remember Bishop Hilarion seemed to view its organization as a confederation to an extent, maybe federation might be a better term. But he does seem to agree that they are generally unified in terms of dogma. http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/07/19/news22093/