Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

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JasonPratt
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Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by JasonPratt » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:40 pm

I've been engaging some unfamiliar blogger here http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com/2008/01 ... rinth.html, on the topic of whether St. Paul, in Rom 14 (and 15, and apparently 12 and 13) is talking about solidarity with non-Christian Jews. Loren's position, taken from Mark Nanos, is that this is what St. Paul is talking about in those chapters. My rebuttal is that Paul is primarily addressing inter-Christian unity in those chapters (except for 13 which does address relationships outside the church but is more specifically about relations with the governing Romans than with non-Christian Jews).

I have to say it's kind of a one-sided debate at the moment; after posting two long depth analyses of the chapters in question, the replies so far have been... well, not much for addressing my actual rebuttal arguments, to say the least. :roll:

I have a suspicion that the position is more ideology-driven than anything, including expecting my rebuttal to be itself only ideological posturing by someone who doesn't want Paul treating outsiders as brothers to be included. Which is certainly not the case, as I thought I made sufficiently clear in my various comments; but then, neither Loren nor a new commenter seems to have actually read my rebuttals. Loren especially has made mere guesses as to what I'm talking about, that cannot seriously have been grounded in my actual content.

Anyway, it's kind of an unusual topic, and one with some interesting theological sidelights, so I thought I'd share. :geek: Anyone want to take up Loren's position more concretely?

ZAROVE
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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by ZAROVE » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:24 pm

Actually, at the time Paul wrote his letter to the Romans, there was no idea of Christianity as a seperate religion apart from Judaism.

In Pauls world, and in his htinking as a result, the CHristian Faith was just a branch of Judaism, and so solidarity ith other Christians and withthe Jews woudl be seen as the same end.

Paul obviously wanted the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, but never stopped referign to himself as a Jew, either.

To Paul, although the Gentiles are now welcomed into the movement, the movement was Jewish, and centred around Jewish concepts, Jewish Scripture, Jewish Prophecy, and was largley base dupon Judaism as a whole and had a Jewish identity.

So, I think he talks of OSlidarity with all of those in the family of the faith, which woudl include both Jews and Christians.

Thre was no distinction to seperat ehtem at the time except by faction.

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Metacrock
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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by Metacrock » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:34 pm

ZAROVE wrote:Actually, at the time Paul wrote his letter to the Romans, there was no idea of Christianity as a seperate religion apart from Judaism.

In Pauls world, and in his htinking as a result, the CHristian Faith was just a branch of Judaism, and so solidarity ith other Christians and withthe Jews woudl be seen as the same end.

Paul obviously wanted the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, but never stopped referign to himself as a Jew, either.

To Paul, although the Gentiles are now welcomed into the movement, the movement was Jewish, and centred around Jewish concepts, Jewish Scripture, Jewish Prophecy, and was largley base dupon Judaism as a whole and had a Jewish identity.

So, I think he talks of OSlidarity with all of those in the family of the faith, which woudl include both Jews and Christians.

Thre was no distinction to seperat ehtem at the time except by faction.

that was going to be my question Zore, did Paul really see such a hard and fast distinction. I mean he clearly saw a distinction in Romans. In chapter 2 and in 4 and in the bit about being grated in he saw that there was a separate group, but did he not still see it all as continuation of Israel? I think he did.
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JasonPratt
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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by JasonPratt » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:08 am

Metacrock wrote:that was going to be my question Zore, did Paul really see such a hard and fast distinction. I mean he clearly saw a distinction in Romans. In chapter 2 and in 4 and in the bit about being grated in he saw that there was a separate group, but did he not still see it all as continuation of Israel? I think he did.
I think he understood there to be a hard and fast distinction between those Jews who accepted Christ and those Jews who (like himself previously) did not. (Duh. :roll:) You can't have chapter 11, among many other things, without that.

I do agree with Zarove that St. Paul understood Christianity (not called such at the time of course) to be the proper continuation of Judaism. Obviously in the same chapter 11 where he grieves over his fellow Jews and expects God to save them eventually, and warns Gentile Christians not to get uppity over Jews whose branches have been taken off the vine (because God didn't spare those Jews, and neither will he spare arrogant Gentiles, but will take _them_ off the vine, too, for cleaning if necessary--moreover those taken off the vine are slated to be grafted back in again), St. Paul sees Israel as the culmination of all devotion to God. Beyond that, I even agree with Nanos (and Loren I guess), about St. Paul trying to get his Christian congregations to understand that the non-Christian Jews and pagans were still their brothers (even though not yet Christian). That includes 1 Cor 8.

However: that is quite beside the point. The question is whether Rom 14 (and 15 and apparently 12 and 13) are supposed to be talking primarily about solidarity with non-Christian Jews. I say it's highly obvious that in those chapters, this is not the topic in view. I have a suspicion that Loren thinks I'm trying to deny Paul's concern for brotherhood with non-Christians (Jews and Gentiles alike). Which I'm not; I'm only trying to be accurate as to the topics of those particular chapters.

Chris Tilling, over at http://www.christilling.de/blog/2008/01 ... y-of.html, has expressed some interest in analyzing Nanos' thesis, too. (Chris seems to agree with me, in my agreements and dissensions from Nanos, but hasn't gone into detail why yet.)

JRP

ZAROVE
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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:07 pm

ALTHOUGH there wa a distinction between those Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah, and htose hwo had not, the distinction clealry rested soley upon this realisation that the messiah had come, int he writtings of St. Paul the Apostle.

Thats what makes the letter of the ROmans murky to modern readers in regards to your queastion, sicne we are far more use ot thinkign of Jews as seperate from Christians.

However, Paul did not think this way, and merley understood that the Jews that had not accepted Jesus as the Mesisah yet where still of Israel, and still followed the Covenant an law of God. They simply had not been broguth into the fullness of the truth.

The Solidarity Paul speaks of, then, would have had ot be, in my reiterated view, with both those Christains who where of different customs, and with the Jews who had yet to accept the Messiah.

I don't think the SOlidarity is about one group or the other, but with the whoel COmmonwealth of ISrael, who Paul saw as encorporating all beleivers int he God of Abraham and the Law, but who soem mmbers had been cut off from the continued blessings of God by not yet accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

Thus, the SOlidarity he pushed for was with the entuirely of Israel. Paul understood, along with the rest of the early Churhc up till some time after the Reformaiton, that the Churhc wad a continuation of ( Not a replacement to) Israel, and that all of those withn the covenant where part of the Commonwealth of Israel.

THus, I'd still say that askign if Paul was spekaing of Jews or Christian beleivers is makign a division that wans't itsself clea rin Pauls mind, and instead he asked ofr Unity int he faith with all of those who where part of the covenant with God through Abraham, and who where part of Israel as a Spiritual Intety.

I know this is somewhat unsatisfactory, but its the view I hold to since the earliest Christauns just didn't see itself as different from Judaism, and instead saw itsself as a continuation of Judaism and Israel.

JasonPratt
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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by JasonPratt » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:19 pm

ZAROVE wrote:I know this is somewhat unsatisfactory, but its the view I hold to since the earliest Christauns just didn't see itself as different from Judaism, and instead saw itsself as a continuation of Judaism and Israel.
:| I'm pretty sure I said that myself, back up in my most recent reply.

{sigh} So, now that I have reiterated that I AGREE WITH THIS, we're back to the actual question at hand again, which is: do the details of Rom 14-15 (and per Nanos I guess 12 and 13, too) involve Paul speaking about maintaining relationships specifically with Jews who do not yet accept Christ (such as in chapter 11), or do those chapters involve Paul speaking about other kinds of relationship maintenance?

I'm arguing in my rebuttals that in chps 12, 14 and 15 Paul is talking about maintaining relationships within the group of people who already accept Christ (Jews and Gentiles both), and that in chp 13 Paul is talking about maintaining relationships with people who don't already accept Christ (generally and the Romans specifically, but not Jews specifically, unlike for instance in chapter 11.)

If you think, along with Nanos, that in chps 12-15 Paul is speaking about maintaining relationships specifically with Jews who do not yet accept Christ, then would you care to comment on my rebuttal analyses of those chapters?

ZAROVE
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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:07 pm

THATS sort of my problem, in that I agree with her and I agree with you.

I see that Paul wants us to maintian a sort of COmmonwalth of Israel, and a sort of relationship with both Christians who may disagree on sme things or do things differnelty, and the Jews that have yet to come to Christ.

In that vein, I am sayign that Paul is askign us to maintain a relationship with the household of Faith and all those who follow the Covenant of Abraham, which woudl include both those who have not accepted Jesu as the Messiah, and htose who have but who have formed a different faction.

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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:03 pm

AND sorrt to not address the spacific debate, its just that I don't see either veiw as wrong, just incomplete, and that the letter addresses both parties referenced.

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Re: Interesting technical debate on Rom 14-15 over here...

Post by Metacrock » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:18 am

ZAROVE wrote:AND sorrt to not address the spacific debate, its just that I don't see either veiw as wrong, just incomplete, and that the letter addresses both parties referenced.

I can't catch fire on this one.
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